This video was rather eye-opening for me because I definitely bought the secularization theory, which hypothesizes that as societies have become more modern, the degree of religiosity has greatly declined. That seems to make sense to me because we can definitely see how in the US, much social change has occurred even over the last 100 years as some of the old norms and mores have been replaced by new ones. Specifically, it seems our society seems to look less and less towards religion as being a legitimate source of mores. Take the issue of gay-marriage, or homosexual relationships. Many Christian denominations use the bible as a basis for condemning these practices as immoral, and in past times, these practices were widely regarded as such. Now, those denominations still exist, but are not looked to by society as a legitimate authority. Now, there is much more tolerance for homosexual people and their practices have become much more socially acceptable. You could make the same case for premarital sex. 100 years ago, it was pretty unheard of for pre-marital sex to be talked about in public and was widely prohibited by parents and strongly looked down on by society at large. Now, we all know that it happens and many parents don't seem to care very much about the morality of the act, so long as their kids are having safe sex. So while religiosity may still be high in the US, the place that religion occupies in our society and in informing our choices and views of everyday life seems to have changed! thestig001
I agree with you. People may be saying they are religious, but if those people really truly acted religious, gay-marriage and premarital sex would not nearly as common. Even Buddhists do not believe in premarital sex. So, it doesn't have to be just Christians that need to change their actions to fit their words. If everyone that said they were religious acted that way, this world would be a much different place. swimmer001
To be blunt, I think you are wrong about our society looking less and less towards religion as a legitimate source of mores. I've noticed that in the general population and specifically the millennial generation that we perceive the world completely different than how it actually is. The media and social networking has done a terrible job of informing the public of what is actually happen. For example, What percentage of the population do you think is Homosexual/Bisexual? A majority of people think its anywhere from 15 to 45 percent. In fact, the real percentage as per a recent Gallup poll is only 2%. Another misconception is the idea of Atheism being a huge movement. Here are some statistics from the Pew research center.
"More Americans say they do not believe in God or a universal spirit (7%) than say they are atheists (2.4%). 4 Not all atheists see a contradiction between atheism and spirituality. A quarter (26%) say they think of themselves as spiritual people, and 3% consider themselves religious people"
The only reason why you are seeing a whole lot more news about these groups and why they are being focused on so closely is a simple concept: Those who scream the loudest garner the most attention.
Some more interesting statistics on homosexuality as of 2014, only about 50% of homosexuals are actually in a relationship, and only about 25% of those actually want to get married. The issue is when extremist activists get enough attention that the media thinks its newsworthy to report. Controversial subjects get the media views, so that's what they will focus on. The same thing happened in New York with Occupy Wall Street when the originators of the movement were actually a Canadian socialist anarchist organization. The reason that churches are changing their policies against scripture is because they are scared of being criticized, ridiculed, attacked, etc. The existence of a church is dependent on their followers supporting it. By changing their beliefs, the churches are falling into the trap of Moral Relativism. People are amazed to see that the fastest growing religion in the world is Islam, and how there has been an explosion of it across the globe. It's not that hard to figure out. The people who are changing our society in the modern era aren't the extremists, it's the moderates who are willing to give up their values in the name of "Love" and "Kindness". Well if you aren't grounded in an objective morality, then there can be no baseline for what you consider to be loving or kind in the first place.
The main reason evangelism has been spreading across Christianity? The traditional churches are changing, and the majority of the people don't actually like it. Yet people are too afraid to say it. This connects DIRECTLY to Milgram's authority experiments. When you have the people in power who are telling you that "this is how it should be" and you only have about 10% of the population who are actually willing to actively resist their authority, it isn't surprising that this 10% are considered "extremist" under the authority of the people in power. Heck, even in these posts I have been, for the most part, the only person in the whole class who is willing to challenge the status quo, disagree with people, and present something contradictory to what is being claimed. Someone has to stand up for what the majority of the population really believes, despite the perceptions that are shoved down our gullets, as if we are a helpless flock of wandering sheep.
Ok, so maybe more people actually consider themselves religious than what I made it sound like, but what is this "religiosity" really doing for them? How religious is a church and its members if they don't actually stand up for what they believe in and instead conform themselves to the authority of all the activist/extremist groups out there by changing their doctrine? My point is that measuring religion (operationalizing the variable of "religion") is hard to do, because there are a variety of ways of measuring it. For me, just saying that you believe in God or that you are a member of a Protestant Denomination doesn't really make you religious. I believe that belief has to be backed up by actions that support those beliefs. For me, the principles of whatever religion you consider yourself a part of should be reflected and easily visible in your daily life if you are really "living out the faith."
So for the large part, I think I do agree with your main point, Freedom, that it's not the extremists who are the biggest problem, but the majority of people who don't like the extremists and are afraid to stand up for their beliefs because they may be persecuted.
I can see some of your points. I think people today are more informed in general now. They realize that they don't have to take the people in charge or religious leaders word on everything or be told what to 100% believe. There are so many people with agendas it is hard to trust people religious or not. And not only do they not stand up for what they believe in but generally speaking religious people do not live how their god or whomever is telling them they should be. Some of the people I have met deeply religious don't abide by the same "rules" they expect people in their community to follow. Some might be considered hypocritical for sure. Whether or not modernization helps or hurts this, I'm sure it's been around for all time and probably will always be this way. WonderWoman001
Peter Berger is an amazing sociologist who has done so much to further the study of sociology. I thought it interesting how he stated that modernity leads to the downfall of religion which is the Secularization Theory. It makes complete sense, really, when one stops to think about it. The more technology advances there are, the more people start to rely more on themselves rather then God. It really is sad. Jesus loves us all so much, but yet because of the rise of modernity, people are forsaking God and turning to themselves for comfort and peace. Even thought Mr. Berger says that he disagrees with the theory I still think it is still plausible. People may say they are more religious but are their actions following their words? Even though a societies social character may stay relatively the same with modernity, people's religiosity goes down. swimmer001
I agree with you, definitely Peter Berger is amazing. I didn't know about the secularization theory earlier, but I did know to myself that religious beliefs and norms do change as we become more and more modern. Although it is only understandable now why elderly and the young generation have such conflicts when it comes to "how religious are you?" Elderly were part of society when it started becoming modern and post modernization youngsters have new take on been religious, which is so close to secularization theory. I don't see anything wrong with it, but I also do think that religious the word needs to be revised. khush001
After watching the video, it occurs to me that people say they are "religious" but it's according to their best convenience. Modernity definitely leads to this change in religious norms. There are so many things that religion would stop one to do, but as we progress in society norms change, beliefs change as well. Secularization theory comes in play here, which means that as societies progress, particularly through modernization and rationalization, religion loses its authority in all aspects of social life and governance. What is interesting now is that this theory of secularization does not just stand true for one particular religion. It is the same for all religion, be it hinduism or judaism. I see it a lot on hinduism now, hindu values restrict women in lot of ways. Such as not going into any holy place during menstruation, now feminists in India are now fighting against it. The knowledge that is out there and available to females in India, they have progressed and are moving away for the true hindu belief. They call themselves religious too. khush001
I agree with you khush001 because some act like religion is inconvienant for them but then they still attend church and base their life decisions off of their religion. As technolgy improves religion becomes less of an option for people. As we get older our beliefs change some and we tend to different things with our lives. It's not that we stop beliving, we just have other life challenges that we take on. Our norms also change to as we get older. I agree with you on this too because we don;t have the same mind set as we did when we were younger. Summer001
Those modern women aren't just simlple women trying to pray, they are pioneers to the rights for women. Why shouldn't they be considered religious? In my American opinion, there isn't anything disconcerning here,(except maybe that bravery is probably a definate shocker to the hindu norm ) and definately modern times may give them courage. I have mixed emotions about what both of you said about practicing religion, how maybe that it is an inconvience for them. Well honestly, yes it is hard to practice any kind of religion. I think that it's just really about running out of time and energy. It's hard to get everyday things finished on top of work . It's exhausting to feed everyone all the time, And it's harder to get three kids up, and ready for church on the weekends. I really do believe in raising my kids with in our religion, it gives us guidelines they cannot learn at school, and it is my job to teach them right from wrong, not just to let society raise them. Your mindset should change when you get older; when you have your own kids it's simply growing up. Rosebudd001
With sociology being such a young soft science, it is almost understandable that they would get something as prevalent as the secularization of society as modernization occurs completely wrong. They had a hypothesis and they needed data to disprove the hypothesis. The problem is that at if they had took the time to look at the idea from a historical civilizational perspective, the exact opposite pattern would emerge. Consider this: What was the progress of civilization before Judaism? How about after? Before Christianity to After? Before Islam to now? The driving force for a civilization's growth has always been directly correlated to the spread of religion. Whenever religion begins to lessen in a civilization, it declines. Rome is the primary example of this concept. In 200 years if we don't see a reversal of current societal trends in the US, we will be the new primary example. Modernization is a direct result of religious affiliation, Secularization is the effect of a decline in religious affiliation. As a civilization becomes more secularized, it becomes less modernized. Consider the cultural thought lag theory that I presented in a previous post. Our Universities in the US are heavily secularized. The generation it is producing is the stupidest in US History. As secularization became a common school of thought, there was less emphasis on civilizational progress as a whole and more of an emphasis on the individual's progress. Pattern recognition is instrumental in determining valid conclusions. Just because you don't have scientific studies doesn't mean you cannot conclude that something is true. In fact, specifically in scientific studies it is precisely impossible to conclude that something is absolutely true. FreedomUnderGod001
I totally agree with what you said! I am not as eloquent to say it but in my opinion, you hit the nail on the head! The growth of our civilization has occurred because of the need to spread the religion that the explorers belonged to. The down side to that is the collective dogma that preaches individualism in our school systems. Arizona001
This reminds me of an experience I had with my mother. I was studying the orbitals of electrons around the nucleus with my mom. She some commented asking why the Bohr model wasn't found in my textbook, to which I replied how that model is outdated and is considered false. Surprised she told me that in her high school chemistry class the Bohr Model was taught as unquestionably true. Even with sciences as old as chemistry there are still significant discoveries made every day which alter our perspective of them significantly. It is no surprise that the same mistake is made here in sociology, a relatively young science. Karma001
Within the symbolic-interaction approach, we see how people turn religion to give their everyday lives more meaning. Berger says that by doing this they are in turn ignoring that society has constructed these symbols. This theory also ignores the social inequality in religion as well. Berger spoke on religion giving us the appearance of ultimate security. I'm not sure exactly why there seems to be more freedom within the religious sector, if there could be one reason alone. Maybe technology and modernization people have felt more freedom in choosing for themselves. Or even the other side feeling so let down from their religions or the people that are involved that they are turning to alternatives in belief. I feel very fortunate to be able to have these choices. I respect everyone's different ideas on what they want to believe in or how they want to live, does it personally affect me...finding your meaning in your everyday can and will be totally different for every single one of us and I don't find anyone better or worse than the other. Wonder Woman001
I agree with you that technology and modernization allows people the freedom to choose for themselves. Also the feeling of being let down by the religious head of their churches being arrested for the worst things imaginable by a preacher or pastor. My father has stopped attending church for that reason, which didn't just happen once but two in a row. He is still very religious but that hasn't helped with his trust issues. If religion makes you feel secure then more power to you, guns make me feel secure.TooTall001
The act of grounding your children ignores the social inequality that is represented by you having complete dominance over your kid. Maybe we should get rid of the idea of individuals raising our children and just send them all off to fun camps so they can be raised as equals without subjecting them to social inequality. Social inequality is talked about as if it is a bad, terrible, hideous thing. I'm pushing the big red BS button, because social inequality is actually a good thing. In fact, inequality in general is not a bad thing. The reason religion gives the appearance of ultimate security is because it does give ultimate security. Not a hard intellectual jump. There seems to be more freedom within a religious sector because mainstream religion sectors promote more freedom. Liberty is a characteristic of a human being that necessarily must be given by God, otherwise it is not true Liberty. Without God as a baseline, no objective morality or objective truth can be defined. To live your life without accepting the existence of God is amoral, illogical, and completely ignores the increased strength of arguments that modern science has given us. What should be noted is that someone's belief is completely separate from objective truth. FreedomUnderGod001
The more modernity the less religion. I agree with berger on this statement. I believe most people say their religious becasue they dont want to look fround upon. To me religion doesn't define a person for who they are. It's one's personal choice/hobby and it shouldn't take a person for granted because of their religion. The change in religion occurs because of modernity. We have accumulated more freedom and independence. Because of this we have aquired to do things on our own and to choose what we want to do. Which isn't bad because it is better if an individual is more independent witht their own beliefs. Beliefs shouldn't be based off anothers personal belief because well, we are all different and have our own views. Some people tend to judge if someone is of a different religion. Many things have changed people's beliefs or views towards religion and one big one is technology. Technology has taught us to be more independent. Summer001
I agree Summer001 religion does not define a person what’s so ever but personal choice and how they decide to live on the outside. I also feel like freedom and in dependency is a huge factor for religion decline, people that grew up around religion eventually move out of homes that practice their religious beliefs daily and soon these beliefs start to decline and one day the just stop all together it is very much possible. LAWS001
The degree of modernity is independent of the growth or regress of religion. It is the degree of secularization that you should be examining. Example: Turkey is a nation that is modernizing, yet is growing stronger in it's faith. The same you would see is true of many developing South American and African nations. It is also inherently NOT better for civilization if an individual is more independent with their own beliefs, primarily because it fractures a society. I agree what belief shouldn't be based off of another's personal belief. It should be based on logic. Some people are just incapable of intellectually understanding the reasoning behind a position. In fact, most people are anti-logic. We are human, so we tend to gravitate towards our biochemical dependencies and emotions. Independent individuals do not build civilization. That position is inherently dyscivic. It is also false, technology does nothing to teach, it is how people use technology that defines its function.
Religion fundamentally defines a person completely, how they decide to live "on the outside" is a completely different matter. Well obviously freedom is a factor for religious decline, would you rather have people executing and beheading people who don't believe the same thing as you? Religion isn't solely based on your parents, its how your parents taught you that determines what you initially believe, then it is upon the responsibility of the individual to either support his preexisting beliefs or to contradict them. FreedomUnderGod001
Berger’s change of opinion on the connection between modernity and religiosity is an interesting one to listen to. The relationship between church and state being the main reason for secularization is an obvious one to see. If the “state” to which you belong has a preferred “church”, the acceptance of that religion would have a direct connection to how the citizen viewed the state. If the state and the church are kept separated though, the failings of the state then, wouldn’t have any impact of the religiosity of the citizens. In modern times, when people are fed and aren’t just surviving but living, people want meaning in their life and therefore, seek out a religion that fits what they need. Usually, people are converted by a colleague or a good friend because big questions about “life” are easily asked in good company. Arizona001
I think your comment is very true. In modern times we are trying to find meaning in our lives. I think not only can religion provide meaning in our lives, but provide meaning in other people’s lives as well. Most people my age are afraid in today’s society to proclaim a religion. I think it is important to have a strong belief system as a human. So many things in life are so uncertain; I am not sure how people can get through life without having a faith base. SVT001.
Peter Berger described how secularized theory has become unattainable. I like how he stated he respected the sociologists that go against the grain so to say. I think this shows that he has a lot of respect for his field even if he thinks they are wrong. As a religious man I do not like secularization. I find that religion needs to have social and cultural significance. I don’t force people to believe in something if they don’t want to believe in it. This goes for religion or any belief that I have, but I do think we need to have religious backing. Religion brings people together and reminds us that the world does not revolve around us. SVT001.
I think on some levels having religious ideologies is a good thing, but I think Jefferson had it right 250 years ago when he said to have a separation of church and state. This statement by him was coming from what he had heard or seen over the past 100 years. England had their monarch threatened with revolution over some religious issues, and France was starting their revolution over the "divine king" suppressing his people. He knew that if America was to have a state religion then it would be nothing but bad news for the future leaders of the country. glassonion001
What's important to note is that Jefferson was also a deeply religious man. He was also extremely intelligent. He recognized the difference between the power of man (churches) and the power of God. What is also important to note is that although there is a separation of church and state in the US, the fundamentals of our society are actually based in that very religious belief and the idea of our God given rights. FreedomUnderGod001
People are religious at their own convenience. Since technology and computers allow anyone to type anything in and you can watch so many terrible acts done to people around the world it has weakened our religious beliefs. Along with the theory of evolution saying we evolved from primates and we didn't just appear one day. I believe this has a lot to do with Peter Bergers secularization theory of the decline of religion in the modern world. The poor look up to the wealthy and Europe and the U.S. are followed by the rest of the world. Berger says the church and state isn't even an issue in the U.S. and geographically Europe is very secular and the rest of the world will follow suit. With all the terrorism, natural disasters, and wars going on today, even if all of the most religious people got together and prayed to their Gods asking not to stop all of the chaos, but even one single thing or else they would kill themselves it doesn't take a genius to know they would be killing themselves. TooTall001
You are mistaking the act of giving prayer to God with commanding God to do something. Just because you pray for something doesn't mean you're going to get it. There is a human aspect that goes into it where we have to work for our own achievements. It doesn't take a genius to know that your example is both a straw man and a red herring. If you were to understand basic theology you would know that it simply doesn't apply. You talk about the theory of evolution as if it is absolutely true, yet you have on understanding of the fundamental philosophy of the matter. Your allusion to a Creationist viewpoint is also a straw man, because that is a extremely primitive understanding of scripture, which completely ignores the advances we have had in the modern era. TENS (Theory of Evolution through Natural Selection) is also illogical once you get into the mathematics and the reasoning behind it. It has now been used in today's society as a similar function to a primitive theological apologetic strategy called "God of the gaps" where if you didn't know about something, you would assert that "God did it, it was a miracle, etc etc". People now use "Evolution of the gaps" Because evolution can be twisted and turned to speculate about any kind of species behavior. The fact of the matter is that the field of Genetics has disproven the theory, yet it has been so ingrained within the current scientific community that a majority of people are unwilling to speak out against it. Tootall, your comment has come off as extremely passive-aggressive and not very well thought out. Try to articulate your points more directly and with logic and people will take your contentions more seriously. FreedomUnderGod001
I agree with Berger's statement about how the more modern a society becomes the more secularized it becomes. Like he said when looking at this topic you not only have to look at it from a sociological view, but also a historical view. This statement makes sense to me because as a society develops more technologies that explain scientific anomalies, the less people will look to religion for answers, Look how secularized the western world has become over the past 200 years. It has gone from almost every western nation being ruled by a king who considered himself a "divine leader" to only one nation even having a royal family (England). I think we in America like to play devil's advocate on this subject because it hasn't hit our shores yet, but I think over the next few decades people will look less to religion for answers. glassonion001
This video does have me thinking why it seems today that people are not leaning towards religion as much as in the past centuries. Not only do I believe it is a modernization problem but also a time problem. Like everyone has stated in their previous comments I also think that as we advance in technology we tend to almost think believing in a higher being is completely impossible. For example, now that medical treatments have advanced we seem to be looking for mercy at the hands of our Doctors not God. Obviously if you are terminally ill you should seek medical attention but back in the day people would put their lives in the hands of God to heal and I do not think we see that as often anymore. Toby001
I may be one of the few with a complimentary view of science and belief in God. I see no reason why these belief systems must be in opposition. If a person believes in an omnipotent and omniscient God, all other hypotheses are conceivable. I am a Christian who would not discount the possibility of extraterrestrials, because i cannot limit God to simply our own human creation. Packers001
Packers, you are correct. Sort of. You reached the correct conclusion with the wrong reasoning. Science and the belief in God are not in opposition, in fact Science cannot even being to touch upon the existence of God because it only deals with the empirical. What you will find if you take the time to look into it is that the existence of God is necessary to make any kind of statement of truth at all.
What Toby talks about is how the advancement of civilization has evolved our understanding of situations where we used to know nothing about, so the only being we could place our hope into was God. In today's age, we know better, yet it should be noted that this still has no effect on the argument for/against the existence of God.
Yes, TooTall, I sort of agree with you that technology is the root of society's lack of religion. It's much more difficult to lead a good straight and narrow path with all of the graphic influences all around us. We're bombarded with so many unhealthy things from media, internet, t.v .etc. , society is so used to it , we've been de- sensitized, and even the most vile and shocking behavior is the norm on the news. According to Dr. Peter Berger, Secular theory was a given constant in the field of Sociology, as regarding Modernity to Religion even up to the 1960's. This Secularization Theory is pretty much the thought that modern times lead to less religion . I think that it's easy to see why this was a belief in this science. Modern ways have always freaked people out. Modern times evoke information, and the more that information is available the more choices people have. And the real technological boom hadn't even fully hit until computers linked everyone world wide. It gives people the power of individualism; one can more easily do for one self now, where as before people were more connected with their community for extracurriculular activities, church, and information. People ran their life by what the neighbors would say. People's lives were more linked to community and neighbors, because that's all they had . It is interesting to me why other European countries are still secularized compared to the U.S..When these countries aren't challenged in the use of technology. Maybe their societies have a more secular being because they may have more of a morally strict social, and judicial system than we do. Rosebudd001
Though I have no way of making a significant argument for my post (like all of my other posts) I would like to make some loose connection between two concepts. The two concepts I want to draw a connection between is modern versus postmodern views of society and the change in secularization found in this video. Within the modern view, as we have learned, has a deprecated understanding of preceding ideas, such as religion. A connection, or more likely an assumption, could be made be made modernistic sociological perspective and its theory of secularization. The modern sociologist may have this predisposition to see religion as a concept of the past and having no part in the progress of the present, resulting in religious decline in modern societies. Now, as this sociologist retrospects on this falsity, the postmodern view has rejected the modern view of secularization, shedding its old predispositions. This connection is supported by the alignment of the modern and postmodern eras and the introduction and rejection of the sociological theory of secularization. Karma001
This video does have me thinking why it seems today that people are not leaning towards religion as much as in the past centuries. Not only do I believe it is a modernization problem but also a time problem. Like everyone has stated in their previous comments I also think that as we advance in technology we tend to almost think believing in a higher being is completely impossible. For example, now that medical treatments have advanced we seem to be looking for mercy at the hands of our Doctors not God. Obviously if you are terminally ill you should seek medical attention but back in the day people would put their lives in the hands of God to heal and I do not think we see that as often anymore. Toby001
I can see how modernity would have something to do with the decline of religion due to the fact that modernization has a major characteristic of the expansion of personal choice. Some people growing up had to have belief in their religion and follow but as some people grow into adult hood they decide that the religion they lived their daily lives by is something they no longer want to live by. Some people that are religious may believe that their religion is the norm but branching off into the world and observing the way others act or treat religion may rub off on them and they may not see their religion as a “norm” like they once did. There are many speculations to why people decide to end their religion beliefs, I believe that the society may have a lot to do with that. LAWS001
As Professor White would say, this is "the big puppy on the block", in my view. Nothing causes more verbal spats in my family than politics and religion, but mostly the latter. From a generic perspective, i think modernity has dampened the fervor of religiosity in industrialized nations, even if America is an anomaly. I am curious about the thermometer they used to make this evaluation. Europe has definitely shunned Christianity over the last 5-8 decades, but they have created a vacuum or void that is currently being filled by Islam. State sponsored religion will drive a revulsion into constituents, but secularization also breeds relativism. Europe has become a hotspot for home grown terror groups. I'm not sure that we have the perfect solution with our own constitutional language, but it does create religious parity. Packers001
I think that the not just in Europe there are circumstances of modernity being an effect of decline in religion because I think that even here In America or any other place as well. For example with teens growing up with religious parents who may be strict and make them go to church sometimes there are cases where the child as they grow up become very apart from the church. Being like oh no I got other things to do than to go to the church. For college students they may be so busy that they concentrate only in their studies, studies, success, I need to get that A in the class, or classes etc. This can allow people to become separate from his or her religion. Not saying that for all people this happens but, can be a possibility. In our modern world education is a must to succeed. From what I have seen it happens in my religion. With teenagers growing up they become attracted to the modern world of having fun and so many other things that become distractions that affect the persons beliefs and religiosity. Hanging out with other people who have different beliefs or are atheists that can influence one to change their perspective about a religion. The doubt of a god even existing. It comes to mind for young people or even adults, they become oblivious and start thinking different. It starts then to affect on what they belief in or what they don't. People converting to other religions than what they had grown up with. Also, as one marries another person their beliefs can influence the other and change his or her religion. I think that little things like that change a persons religion, changes their ideas, changes how tradition use to be it is being more modern, it also declines religious mentality. Thinking that there is no god. You gotta work to make a living. You live and then die. HollaGurl001
This video was rather eye-opening for me because I definitely bought the secularization theory, which hypothesizes that as societies have become more modern, the degree of religiosity has greatly declined. That seems to make sense to me because we can definitely see how in the US, much social change has occurred even over the last 100 years as some of the old norms and mores have been replaced by new ones. Specifically, it seems our society seems to look less and less towards religion as being a legitimate source of mores. Take the issue of gay-marriage, or homosexual relationships. Many Christian denominations use the bible as a basis for condemning these practices as immoral, and in past times, these practices were widely regarded as such. Now, those denominations still exist, but are not looked to by society as a legitimate authority. Now, there is much more tolerance for homosexual people and their practices have become much more socially acceptable. You could make the same case for premarital sex. 100 years ago, it was pretty unheard of for pre-marital sex to be talked about in public and was widely prohibited by parents and strongly looked down on by society at large. Now, we all know that it happens and many parents don't seem to care very much about the morality of the act, so long as their kids are having safe sex.
ReplyDeleteSo while religiosity may still be high in the US, the place that religion occupies in our society and in informing our choices and views of everyday life seems to have changed!
thestig001
I agree with you. People may be saying they are religious, but if those people really truly acted religious, gay-marriage and premarital sex would not nearly as common. Even Buddhists do not believe in premarital sex. So, it doesn't have to be just Christians that need to change their actions to fit their words. If everyone that said they were religious acted that way, this world would be a much different place.
Deleteswimmer001
To be blunt, I think you are wrong about our society looking less and less towards religion as a legitimate source of mores. I've noticed that in the general population and specifically the millennial generation that we perceive the world completely different than how it actually is. The media and social networking has done a terrible job of informing the public of what is actually happen. For example, What percentage of the population do you think is Homosexual/Bisexual? A majority of people think its anywhere from 15 to 45 percent. In fact, the real percentage as per a recent Gallup poll is only 2%. Another misconception is the idea of Atheism being a huge movement. Here are some statistics from the Pew research center.
Delete"More Americans say they do not believe in God or a universal spirit (7%) than say they are atheists (2.4%). 4 Not all atheists see a contradiction between atheism and spirituality. A quarter (26%) say they think of themselves as spiritual people, and 3% consider themselves religious people"
The only reason why you are seeing a whole lot more news about these groups and why they are being focused on so closely is a simple concept:
Those who scream the loudest garner the most attention.
Some more interesting statistics on homosexuality as of 2014, only about 50% of homosexuals are actually in a relationship, and only about 25% of those actually want to get married. The issue is when extremist activists get enough attention that the media thinks its newsworthy to report. Controversial subjects get the media views, so that's what they will focus on. The same thing happened in New York with Occupy Wall Street when the originators of the movement were actually a Canadian socialist anarchist organization. The reason that churches are changing their policies against scripture is because they are scared of being criticized, ridiculed, attacked, etc. The existence of a church is dependent on their followers supporting it. By changing their beliefs, the churches are falling into the trap of Moral Relativism. People are amazed to see that the fastest growing religion in the world is Islam, and how there has been an explosion of it across the globe. It's not that hard to figure out. The people who are changing our society in the modern era aren't the extremists, it's the moderates who are willing to give up their values in the name of "Love" and "Kindness". Well if you aren't grounded in an objective morality, then there can be no baseline for what you consider to be loving or kind in the first place.
The main reason evangelism has been spreading across Christianity? The traditional churches are changing, and the majority of the people don't actually like it. Yet people are too afraid to say it. This connects DIRECTLY to Milgram's authority experiments. When you have the people in power who are telling you that "this is how it should be" and you only have about 10% of the population who are actually willing to actively resist their authority, it isn't surprising that this 10% are considered "extremist" under the authority of the people in power. Heck, even in these posts I have been, for the most part, the only person in the whole class who is willing to challenge the status quo, disagree with people, and present something contradictory to what is being claimed. Someone has to stand up for what the majority of the population really believes, despite the perceptions that are shoved down our gullets, as if we are a helpless flock of wandering sheep.
FreedomUnderGod001
Ok, so maybe more people actually consider themselves religious than what I made it sound like, but what is this "religiosity" really doing for them? How religious is a church and its members if they don't actually stand up for what they believe in and instead conform themselves to the authority of all the activist/extremist groups out there by changing their doctrine? My point is that measuring religion (operationalizing the variable of "religion") is hard to do, because there are a variety of ways of measuring it. For me, just saying that you believe in God or that you are a member of a Protestant Denomination doesn't really make you religious. I believe that belief has to be backed up by actions that support those beliefs. For me, the principles of whatever religion you consider yourself a part of should be reflected and easily visible in your daily life if you are really "living out the faith."
DeleteSo for the large part, I think I do agree with your main point, Freedom, that it's not the extremists who are the biggest problem, but the majority of people who don't like the extremists and are afraid to stand up for their beliefs because they may be persecuted.
thestig001
I can see some of your points. I think people today are more informed in general now. They realize that they don't have to take the people in charge or religious leaders word on everything or be told what to 100% believe. There are so many people with agendas it is hard to trust people religious or not. And not only do they not stand up for what they believe in but generally speaking religious people do not live how their god or whomever is telling them they should be. Some of the people I have met deeply religious don't abide by the same "rules" they expect people in their community to follow. Some might be considered hypocritical for sure. Whether or not modernization helps or hurts this, I'm sure it's been around for all time and probably will always be this way. WonderWoman001
DeletePeter Berger is an amazing sociologist who has done so much to further the study of sociology. I thought it interesting how he stated that modernity leads to the downfall of religion which is the Secularization Theory. It makes complete sense, really, when one stops to think about it. The more technology advances there are, the more people start to rely more on themselves rather then God. It really is sad. Jesus loves us all so much, but yet because of the rise of modernity, people are forsaking God and turning to themselves for comfort and peace. Even thought Mr. Berger says that he disagrees with the theory I still think it is still plausible. People may say they are more religious but are their actions following their words? Even though a societies social character may stay relatively the same with modernity, people's religiosity goes down.
ReplyDeleteswimmer001
I agree with you, definitely Peter Berger is amazing. I didn't know about the secularization theory earlier, but I did know to myself that religious beliefs and norms do change as we become more and more modern. Although it is only understandable now why elderly and the young generation have such conflicts when it comes to "how religious are you?" Elderly were part of society when it started becoming modern and post modernization youngsters have new take on been religious, which is so close to secularization theory. I don't see anything wrong with it, but I also do think that religious the word needs to be revised.
Deletekhush001
After watching the video, it occurs to me that people say they are "religious" but it's according to their best convenience. Modernity definitely leads to this change in religious norms. There are so many things that religion would stop one to do, but as we progress in society norms change, beliefs change as well. Secularization theory comes in play here, which means that as societies progress, particularly through modernization and rationalization, religion loses its authority in all aspects of social life and governance. What is interesting now is that this theory of secularization does not just stand true for one particular religion. It is the same for all religion, be it hinduism or judaism. I see it a lot on hinduism now, hindu values restrict women in lot of ways. Such as not going into any holy place during menstruation, now feminists in India are now fighting against it. The knowledge that is out there and available to females in India, they have progressed and are moving away for the true hindu belief. They call themselves religious too.
ReplyDeletekhush001
I agree with you khush001 because some act like religion is inconvienant for them but then they still attend church and base their life decisions off of their religion. As technolgy improves religion becomes less of an option for people. As we get older our beliefs change some and we tend to different things with our lives. It's not that we stop beliving, we just have other life challenges that we take on. Our norms also change to as we get older. I agree with you on this too because we don;t have the same mind set as we did when we were younger.
DeleteSummer001
Those modern women aren't just simlple women trying to pray, they are pioneers to the rights for women. Why shouldn't they be considered religious? In my American opinion, there isn't anything disconcerning here,(except maybe that bravery is probably a definate shocker to the hindu norm ) and definately modern times may give them courage. I have mixed emotions about what both of you said about practicing religion, how maybe that it is an inconvience for them. Well honestly, yes it is hard to practice any kind of religion. I think that it's just really about running out of time and energy. It's hard to get everyday things finished on top of work . It's exhausting to feed everyone all the time, And it's harder to get three kids up, and ready for church on the weekends. I really do believe in raising my kids with in our religion, it gives us guidelines they cannot learn at school, and it is my job to teach them right from wrong, not just to let society raise them. Your mindset should change when you get older; when you have your own kids it's simply growing up. Rosebudd001
DeleteWith sociology being such a young soft science, it is almost understandable that they would get something as prevalent as the secularization of society as modernization occurs completely wrong. They had a hypothesis and they needed data to disprove the hypothesis. The problem is that at if they had took the time to look at the idea from a historical civilizational perspective, the exact opposite pattern would emerge. Consider this: What was the progress of civilization before Judaism? How about after? Before Christianity to After? Before Islam to now? The driving force for a civilization's growth has always been directly correlated to the spread of religion. Whenever religion begins to lessen in a civilization, it declines. Rome is the primary example of this concept. In 200 years if we don't see a reversal of current societal trends in the US, we will be the new primary example. Modernization is a direct result of religious affiliation, Secularization is the effect of a decline in religious affiliation. As a civilization becomes more secularized, it becomes less modernized. Consider the cultural thought lag theory that I presented in a previous post. Our Universities in the US are heavily secularized. The generation it is producing is the stupidest in US History. As secularization became a common school of thought, there was less emphasis on civilizational progress as a whole and more of an emphasis on the individual's progress. Pattern recognition is instrumental in determining valid conclusions. Just because you don't have scientific studies doesn't mean you cannot conclude that something is true. In fact, specifically in scientific studies it is precisely impossible to conclude that something is absolutely true.
ReplyDeleteFreedomUnderGod001
I totally agree with what you said! I am not as eloquent to say it but in my opinion, you hit the nail on the head! The growth of our civilization has occurred because of the need to spread the religion that the explorers belonged to. The down side to that is the collective dogma that preaches individualism in our school systems. Arizona001
DeleteThis reminds me of an experience I had with my mother. I was studying the orbitals of electrons around the nucleus with my mom. She some commented asking why the Bohr model wasn't found in my textbook, to which I replied how that model is outdated and is considered false. Surprised she told me that in her high school chemistry class the Bohr Model was taught as unquestionably true. Even with sciences as old as chemistry there are still significant discoveries made every day which alter our perspective of them significantly. It is no surprise that the same mistake is made here in sociology, a relatively young science. Karma001
DeleteWithin the symbolic-interaction approach, we see how people turn religion to give their everyday lives more meaning. Berger says that by doing this they are in turn ignoring that society has constructed these symbols. This theory also ignores the social inequality in religion as well. Berger spoke on religion giving us the appearance of ultimate security. I'm not sure exactly why there seems to be more freedom within the religious sector, if there could be one reason alone. Maybe technology and modernization people have felt more freedom in choosing for themselves. Or even the other side feeling so let down from their religions or the people that are involved that they are turning to alternatives in belief. I feel very fortunate to be able to have these choices. I respect everyone's different ideas on what they want to believe in or how they want to live, does it personally affect me...finding your meaning in your everyday can and will be totally different for every single one of us and I don't find anyone better or worse than the other. Wonder Woman001
ReplyDeleteI agree with you that technology and modernization allows people the freedom to choose for themselves. Also the feeling of being let down by the religious head of their churches being arrested for the worst things imaginable by a preacher or pastor. My father has stopped attending church for that reason, which didn't just happen once but two in a row. He is still very religious but that hasn't helped with his trust issues. If religion makes you feel secure then more power to you, guns make me feel secure.TooTall001
DeleteThe act of grounding your children ignores the social inequality that is represented by you having complete dominance over your kid. Maybe we should get rid of the idea of individuals raising our children and just send them all off to fun camps so they can be raised as equals without subjecting them to social inequality. Social inequality is talked about as if it is a bad, terrible, hideous thing. I'm pushing the big red BS button, because social inequality is actually a good thing. In fact, inequality in general is not a bad thing. The reason religion gives the appearance of ultimate security is because it does give ultimate security. Not a hard intellectual jump. There seems to be more freedom within a religious sector because mainstream religion sectors promote more freedom. Liberty is a characteristic of a human being that necessarily must be given by God, otherwise it is not true Liberty. Without God as a baseline, no objective morality or objective truth can be defined. To live your life without accepting the existence of God is amoral, illogical, and completely ignores the increased strength of arguments that modern science has given us. What should be noted is that someone's belief is completely separate from objective truth. FreedomUnderGod001
DeleteThe more modernity the less religion. I agree with berger on this statement. I believe most people say their religious becasue they dont want to look fround upon. To me religion doesn't define a person for who they are. It's one's personal choice/hobby and it shouldn't take a person for granted because of their religion. The change in religion occurs because of modernity. We have accumulated more freedom and independence. Because of this we have aquired to do things on our own and to choose what we want to do. Which isn't bad because it is better if an individual is more independent witht their own beliefs. Beliefs shouldn't be based off anothers personal belief because well, we are all different and have our own views. Some people tend to judge if someone is of a different religion. Many things have changed people's beliefs or views towards religion and one big one is technology. Technology has taught us to be more independent.
ReplyDeleteSummer001
I agree Summer001 religion does not define a person what’s so ever but personal choice and how they decide to live on the outside. I also feel like freedom and in dependency is a huge factor for religion decline, people that grew up around religion eventually move out of homes that practice their religious beliefs daily and soon these beliefs start to decline and one day the just stop all together it is very much possible. LAWS001
DeleteThe degree of modernity is independent of the growth or regress of religion. It is the degree of secularization that you should be examining. Example: Turkey is a nation that is modernizing, yet is growing stronger in it's faith. The same you would see is true of many developing South American and African nations. It is also inherently NOT better for civilization if an individual is more independent with their own beliefs, primarily because it fractures a society. I agree what belief shouldn't be based off of another's personal belief. It should be based on logic. Some people are just incapable of intellectually understanding the reasoning behind a position. In fact, most people are anti-logic. We are human, so we tend to gravitate towards our biochemical dependencies and emotions. Independent individuals do not build civilization. That position is inherently dyscivic. It is also false, technology does nothing to teach, it is how people use technology that defines its function.
DeleteReligion fundamentally defines a person completely, how they decide to live "on the outside" is a completely different matter. Well obviously freedom is a factor for religious decline, would you rather have people executing and beheading people who don't believe the same thing as you? Religion isn't solely based on your parents, its how your parents taught you that determines what you initially believe, then it is upon the responsibility of the individual to either support his preexisting beliefs or to contradict them. FreedomUnderGod001
Berger’s change of opinion on the connection between modernity and religiosity is an interesting one to listen to. The relationship between church and state being the main reason for secularization is an obvious one to see. If the “state” to which you belong has a preferred “church”, the acceptance of that religion would have a direct connection to how the citizen viewed the state. If the state and the church are kept separated though, the failings of the state then, wouldn’t have any impact of the religiosity of the citizens. In modern times, when people are fed and aren’t just surviving but living, people want meaning in their life and therefore, seek out a religion that fits what they need. Usually, people are converted by a colleague or a good friend because big questions about “life” are easily asked in good company. Arizona001
ReplyDeleteI think your comment is very true. In modern times we are trying to find meaning in our lives. I think not only can religion provide meaning in our lives, but provide meaning in other people’s lives as well. Most people my age are afraid in today’s society to proclaim a religion. I think it is important to have a strong belief system as a human. So many things in life are so uncertain; I am not sure how people can get through life without having a faith base. SVT001.
DeletePeter Berger described how secularized theory has become unattainable. I like how he stated he respected the sociologists that go against the grain so to say. I think this shows that he has a lot of respect for his field even if he thinks they are wrong. As a religious man I do not like secularization. I find that religion needs to have social and cultural significance. I don’t force people to believe in something if they don’t want to believe in it. This goes for religion or any belief that I have, but I do think we need to have religious backing. Religion brings people together and reminds us that the world does not revolve around us. SVT001.
ReplyDeleteI think on some levels having religious ideologies is a good thing, but I think Jefferson had it right 250 years ago when he said to have a separation of church and state. This statement by him was coming from what he had heard or seen over the past 100 years. England had their monarch threatened with revolution over some religious issues, and France was starting their revolution over the "divine king" suppressing his people. He knew that if America was to have a state religion then it would be nothing but bad news for the future leaders of the country. glassonion001
DeleteWhat's important to note is that Jefferson was also a deeply religious man. He was also extremely intelligent. He recognized the difference between the power of man (churches) and the power of God. What is also important to note is that although there is a separation of church and state in the US, the fundamentals of our society are actually based in that very religious belief and the idea of our God given rights. FreedomUnderGod001
DeletePeople are religious at their own convenience. Since technology and computers allow anyone to type anything in and you can watch so many terrible acts done to people around the world it has weakened our religious beliefs. Along with the theory of evolution saying we evolved from primates and we didn't just appear one day. I believe this has a lot to do with Peter Bergers secularization theory of the decline of religion in the modern world. The poor look up to the wealthy and Europe and the U.S. are followed by the rest of the world. Berger says the church and state isn't even an issue in the U.S. and geographically Europe is very secular and the rest of the world will follow suit. With all the terrorism, natural disasters, and wars going on today, even if all of the most religious people got together and prayed to their Gods asking not to stop all of the chaos, but even one single thing or else they would kill themselves it doesn't take a genius to know they would be killing themselves. TooTall001
ReplyDeleteYou are mistaking the act of giving prayer to God with commanding God to do something. Just because you pray for something doesn't mean you're going to get it. There is a human aspect that goes into it where we have to work for our own achievements. It doesn't take a genius to know that your example is both a straw man and a red herring. If you were to understand basic theology you would know that it simply doesn't apply. You talk about the theory of evolution as if it is absolutely true, yet you have on understanding of the fundamental philosophy of the matter. Your allusion to a Creationist viewpoint is also a straw man, because that is a extremely primitive understanding of scripture, which completely ignores the advances we have had in the modern era. TENS (Theory of Evolution through Natural Selection) is also illogical once you get into the mathematics and the reasoning behind it. It has now been used in today's society as a similar function to a primitive theological apologetic strategy called "God of the gaps" where if you didn't know about something, you would assert that "God did it, it was a miracle, etc etc". People now use "Evolution of the gaps" Because evolution can be twisted and turned to speculate about any kind of species behavior. The fact of the matter is that the field of Genetics has disproven the theory, yet it has been so ingrained within the current scientific community that a majority of people are unwilling to speak out against it. Tootall, your comment has come off as extremely passive-aggressive and not very well thought out. Try to articulate your points more directly and with logic and people will take your contentions more seriously. FreedomUnderGod001
DeleteI agree with Berger's statement about how the more modern a society becomes the more secularized it becomes. Like he said when looking at this topic you not only have to look at it from a sociological view, but also a historical view. This statement makes sense to me because as a society develops more technologies that explain scientific anomalies, the less people will look to religion for answers, Look how secularized the western world has become over the past 200 years. It has gone from almost every western nation being ruled by a king who considered himself a "divine leader" to only one nation even having a royal family (England). I think we in America like to play devil's advocate on this subject because it hasn't hit our shores yet, but I think over the next few decades people will look less to religion for answers. glassonion001
ReplyDeleteThis video does have me thinking why it seems today that people are not leaning towards religion as much as in the past centuries. Not only do I believe it is a modernization problem but also a time problem. Like everyone has stated in their previous comments I also think that as we advance in technology we tend to almost think believing in a higher being is completely impossible. For example, now that medical treatments have advanced we seem to be looking for mercy at the hands of our Doctors not God. Obviously if you are terminally ill you should seek medical attention but back in the day people would put their lives in the hands of God to heal and I do not think we see that as often anymore. Toby001
DeleteI may be one of the few with a complimentary view of science and belief in God. I see no reason why these belief systems must be in opposition. If a person believes in an omnipotent and omniscient God, all other hypotheses are conceivable. I am a Christian who would not discount the possibility of extraterrestrials, because i cannot limit God to simply our own human creation. Packers001
DeletePackers, you are correct. Sort of. You reached the correct conclusion with the wrong reasoning. Science and the belief in God are not in opposition, in fact Science cannot even being to touch upon the existence of God because it only deals with the empirical. What you will find if you take the time to look into it is that the existence of God is necessary to make any kind of statement of truth at all.
DeleteWhat Toby talks about is how the advancement of civilization has evolved our understanding of situations where we used to know nothing about, so the only being we could place our hope into was God. In today's age, we know better, yet it should be noted that this still has no effect on the argument for/against the existence of God.
FreedomUnderGod001
Yes, TooTall, I sort of agree with you that technology is the root of society's lack of religion. It's much more difficult to lead a good straight and narrow path with all of the graphic influences all around us. We're bombarded with so many unhealthy things from media, internet, t.v .etc. , society is so used to it , we've been de- sensitized, and even the most vile and shocking behavior is the norm on the news.
ReplyDeleteAccording to Dr. Peter Berger, Secular theory was a given constant in the field of Sociology, as regarding Modernity to Religion even up to the 1960's. This Secularization Theory is pretty much the thought that modern times lead to less religion . I think that it's easy to see why this was a belief in this science. Modern ways have always freaked people out. Modern times evoke information, and the more that information is available the more choices people have. And the real technological boom hadn't even fully hit until computers linked everyone world wide. It gives people the power of individualism; one can more easily do for one self now, where as before people were more connected with their community for extracurriculular activities, church, and information. People ran their life by what the neighbors would say. People's lives were more linked to community and neighbors, because that's all they had . It is interesting to me why other European countries are still secularized compared to the U.S..When these countries aren't challenged in the use of technology. Maybe their societies have a more secular being because they may have more of a morally strict social, and judicial system than we do. Rosebudd001
Though I have no way of making a significant argument for my post (like all of my other posts) I would like to make some loose connection between two concepts. The two concepts I want to draw a connection between is modern versus postmodern views of society and the change in secularization found in this video. Within the modern view, as we have learned, has a deprecated understanding of preceding ideas, such as religion. A connection, or more likely an assumption, could be made be made modernistic sociological perspective and its theory of secularization. The modern sociologist may have this predisposition to see religion as a concept of the past and having no part in the progress of the present, resulting in religious decline in modern societies. Now, as this sociologist retrospects on this falsity, the postmodern view has rejected the modern view of secularization, shedding its old predispositions. This connection is supported by the alignment of the modern and postmodern eras and the introduction and rejection of the sociological theory of secularization. Karma001
ReplyDeleteThis video does have me thinking why it seems today that people are not leaning towards religion as much as in the past centuries. Not only do I believe it is a modernization problem but also a time problem. Like everyone has stated in their previous comments I also think that as we advance in technology we tend to almost think believing in a higher being is completely impossible. For example, now that medical treatments have advanced we seem to be looking for mercy at the hands of our Doctors not God. Obviously if you are terminally ill you should seek medical attention but back in the day people would put their lives in the hands of God to heal and I do not think we see that as often anymore. Toby001
ReplyDeleteI can see how modernity would have something to do with the decline of religion due to the fact that modernization has a major characteristic of the expansion of personal choice. Some people growing up had to have belief in their religion and follow but as some people grow into adult hood they decide that the religion they lived their daily lives by is something they no longer want to live by. Some people that are religious may believe that their religion is the norm but branching off into the world and observing the way others act or treat religion may rub off on them and they may not see their religion as a “norm” like they once did. There are many speculations to why people decide to end their religion beliefs, I believe that the society may have a lot to do with that. LAWS001
ReplyDeleteAs Professor White would say, this is "the big puppy on the block", in my view. Nothing causes more verbal spats in my family than politics and religion, but mostly the latter. From a generic perspective, i think modernity has dampened the fervor of religiosity in industrialized nations, even if America is an anomaly. I am curious about the thermometer they used to make this evaluation. Europe has definitely shunned Christianity over the last 5-8 decades, but they have created a vacuum or void that is currently being filled by Islam. State sponsored religion will drive a revulsion into constituents, but secularization also breeds relativism. Europe has become a hotspot for home grown terror groups. I'm not sure that we have the perfect solution with our own constitutional language, but it does create religious parity. Packers001
ReplyDeleteI think that the not just in Europe there are circumstances of modernity being an effect of decline in religion because I think that even here In America or any other place as well. For example with teens growing up with religious parents who may be strict and make them go to church sometimes there are cases where the child as they grow up become very apart from the church. Being like oh no I got other things to do than to go to the church. For college students they may be so busy that they concentrate only in their studies, studies, success, I need to get that A in the class, or classes etc. This can allow people to become separate from his or her religion. Not saying that for all people this happens but, can be a possibility. In our modern world education is a must to succeed. From what I have seen it happens in my religion. With teenagers growing up they become attracted to the modern world of having fun and so many other things that become distractions that affect the persons beliefs and religiosity. Hanging out with other people who have different beliefs or are atheists that can influence one to change their perspective about a religion. The doubt of a god even existing. It comes to mind for young people or even adults, they become oblivious and start thinking different. It starts then to affect on what they belief in or what they don't. People converting to other religions than what they had grown up with. Also, as one marries another person their beliefs can influence the other and change his or her religion. I think that little things like that change a persons religion, changes their ideas, changes how tradition use to be it is being more modern, it also declines religious mentality. Thinking that there is no god. You gotta work to make a living. You live and then die.
ReplyDeleteHollaGurl001