We as a group thought this film was very good and relevant to the study of sociology. It was interesting how back in the 1960's the film industry was not afraid to make a movie about societies problems. We as a group found ageism to be prominent in this film. The biggest example was the ice cream drive in scene with the main girl’s mother and father. As the father pulled into the drive in diner he was greeted at his driver’s window by a young blond female. The father could not remember what flavor of ice cream he ate the last time he was there. He asked the attendant what flavor he ordered the last time he was there. The attendant had absolutely no idea and she began to list off multiple favors. The father picked one flavor that he thought sounded like the correct flavor he had before. Shortly after he finished the ice cream he backed into another vehicle causing damage to it. The other driver was a much younger African American male who began shouting at the father. He began shouting statements like "old man, senile, and there should be an age limit to have a license." The father proceeded to hand the younger male 50$ which was 10$ more than it would be to fix. As he drove away the crowd began to clap for the younger male speaking out against the old man. This shows the difference in the generation gap in the 1960's. The younger generation overall were becoming more outspoken and not afraid to speak out in a public setting. It also shows that the older population was becoming more of a minority. The other interesting topic that was discussed was the way sexism played a role in this movie. The biggest example that we thought was the father commanding his wife and daughter. The father on multiple occasions told his wife and daughter to "shut up." There was also a scene in the movie in which he told his wife that she was too emotional and could not comprehend the situation. For this generation it was common for the man to dominate the relationship. He explained to his daughter that it would be the last time he could tell her to shut up. This infers that the son in law will be able and should be able to do command their relationship. This was not only a racial concept but a gender concept for this time period. There is much more gender equality in society today verses in the 1960's when this movie was made. In this movie there are so many examples of society generalizations. The movie had many different examples of deviance, the most obvious being the two young people wanting to marry despite their racial differences. This movie is set I n the 1960's. It was a huge deal due to the segregation in communities and places of business. Racial tensions were high in this time period. It was not uncommon to see active racists in society. This movie took a major social issue and put it in a real life situation for Americans to think about. Overall this movie shows that social chance is possible among past, present, and future generations. Today race is less of an issue then in the generation in the movie. It unfortunately is still a societal issue in some communities around the United States. We as a group found it surprising how many social issues that are found in this movie which are still prevalent today as they were 50 years ago. SVT001, grassonion001, and player001.
I agree with you on the point where it seemed during the movie that the men were in charge. The women had a say so but ultimately they were all waiting around to see what Joey’s dad either was going to disapprove or approve of the relationship between John and Joey. The way they talked down to the women but at the same time listened to their opinions. As it was John’s mother who talked Matt into really thinking about when he fell in love with Kris to remember what that was like and how that is what it’s all about not color. The black woman who wasn’t in the same class as Matt or race but he respected her opinion was interesting to me. And I suppose would have definitely gone against the social norms of that time. I liked the idea that Joey was raised to she didn’t see color, interesting again that her parents raised her that way but didn’t realize what the latent effect of that might be…her child marrying outside of her race and age range. Overall I think it spoke to a lot of people whereas people should practice what they preach. Believe what you are going to believe but stand behind it 100% or even close to that. WonderWoman001
There were some sociological issues that they brought up for soicety to look at in the 60's. Some of the things I noticed was that, the meeting was in the more affluent home, and the "dominate" race at that time were the ones with the most lines. Their struggles were shown more that the Afican-American couple. No one else but the white male got to work it out and have a whole monologue. But, still, for the time frame and the subject matter it was an definitely a huge step in the right direction. Arizona001
I think your analysis of the car accident scene and it's ageism is spot on, but I want to present another interpretation of it. When I watched the movie, that scene made me kind of indignant about the young man's behavior as well as the behavior of all the young people. Here Joanne's father had made a mistake and was taking the appropriate action to make up for his mistake, but the young man wouldn't even listen to him. He generously gave more money than what was required, but the young man just blasted him and insulted him to kingdom come, exhibiting severe his severe prejudice against old people. I thought it was good that Joanne's father got somewhat angry at how unreasonable the young man was being, because if he had just taken the abuse and not gotten his dander up at all, it would not have been very accurate. I know that if I was trying to offer to fix a situation I had caused and already felt bad about it, if someone was yelling at me and insulting me, I would get pretty mad. And then, the fact that the whole crowd of young people applauded after Joanne's Dad drove away only made me more outraged at the injustice of the situation.
I would like to suggest that this presentation of the youth as not caring about the old people and being prejudiced against them was done intentionally by the director in order to clearly demonstrate the gap that existed between the young people who embraced the sexual revolution and the older generation who did not. Maybe what we really get through this scene is a little taste of what the older population perception of the youth was during the 1960's. thestig001
I saw a lot of symbolism in the ice cream scene also. I found it fascinating that he thought he ordered the correct ice cream, but soon became irate when he realized it wasn't what he expected. It only took a few bites until he discovered it was actually very good. I saw that as a metaphor or foreshadowing of his view of John and Joanna's marriage. He had expectations according to his own social construct, for Joanna's future. When her and John thrust this situation on him, he became angry and defensive. This wasn't what he imagined her marriage announcement to entail. His own personal ethos was called into question; he was trapped by his own words and ideals. Much like his confusion about the ice cream, he blindly trusted that his assumptions would materialize as he intended. However, after one taste, he realized the new ice cream was not only palatable, but delightful. As was the case with John and Joanna's relationship and marriage. It didn't matter if it was the same ice cream flavor as before, because he wasn't constrained by only liking one kind. So to with John, it was new and different, but John was a good man and a loving mate to Joanna. I think this director did a masterful job of tackling all this social conflict with great tact. Packers001
Interesting how your group mentioned that ageism played a big factor in the movie. You gave some very good examples of how the movie displayed ageism by the example of the ice cream incident. It was also interesting how you said that the film industry was not afraid to make a movie about the problems with society. How very right you are. Nowadays you do not see movies that talk about gay rights or abortion, which are big topics now.The film industry now is a little but more reserved about what they make. Interesting how you also mentioned sexism. Our group also said sexism played a big part in the movie. You could tell that Joey's dad did not treat Joey's mom or Joey the same way he would treat another man. I also had never thought about how when the dad said that is was the last time he could tell Joey to shut-up, he was implying it would be John's right to talk to her like that now. Even though ageism and sexism are still around today, it is good to know that both are declining. I like how this movie really made people think. By doing this, it could possibly have helped make interracial marriages more common. swimmer001
I agree it seemed as though each person had their own role and played them well. Matt had the final say so but wanted to talk to John’s father to see what he had to say and make sure he wasn't the only one to disapprove of the marriage. Next it seemed that Cristina had almost as much say so in the decision making and last but not least John’s mother was quiet and really only talked honestly to Christina like what she had to say wasn't as important as the rest of them. Being Joey was probably raised as much by the maid as the parents she could see past the color of one’s skin and fell in love with the man she loved. Joey is so young she didn't think about what others would say or think or how society was going to treat their children. John being much older and wiser knew the hardships life was going to throw at them being of different race in a time of inequality and prejudice. This film took place in a time of turmoil with the Vietnam War raging on and before all of the social movements. Joey’s father brought the family up as fighting Liberal morals and norms and when it came down to it didn't stand behind it all the way however Cristina did when she fired Hillary. TooTall001
The movie was a great example for the sociology class in many ways the scenes in the movie gave great examples of what society goes through now and than. I felt like when his father backed up into the African American man with his car and the man began cursing at Jo's father right there to me kind of messed it up for John due to the fact that her father already did not like the fact she brought a African American man home but a successful man at that and the way the man was cursing at her father kind of put him in a bad pace especially with African Americans. In this Movie I also felt like the father of Jo was the one that wore the pants in the relationship and the mother was more the emotional one which was the same for Johns family as well, the woman basically had no say for what the couple did. I also agree with you on when he told his wife and daughter to shut up a few times my eyebrows did lift just because to me that is disrespectful but back than that might of been fine for them to do. LAWS001
That's pretty cool how you caught the ageism in the scene where the older gentleman bumps the black guy. It's was so easy to see the obvious issues of race, we may have missed many more hints at other social issues. This makes me also wonder if the younger generation in any time period, whether it be in the 1960s to present. Have we gotten better at not being so prejudice towards the elderly. I think is an ongoing issue that constantly being over shadowed by other forms of prejudice acts. I agree that this film definitely took a huge step by addressing these huger issues that were still fresh. I would consider the film itself to be quite deviant. Taylojj2
During the movie with the part of the car accident scene I thought was interesting because it displayed the authority of racism. When Joanna's father hit the African American stranger car with his car, Joannas father didn't seem to care a whole lot and was yelling at the stranger as if he did something wrong. I thought it was intersting that when they hit each others car they hollored and yelled then got back in their cars and left. Insurance wasn't really around that much then, and if your car got hit you were screwed. Since racism was still around during this time, joannas father acted like he was more superior than the African American when it was her fathers fault of hitting this mans car. Also he told the stranger to buy a new car for $50 dollars at the dealership, which was big because now a days for a near car it cost someone thousands of dollars. The mother just sat in the car like nothing had happened when her husband hit the mans car. Joannas father was so shocked that he wanted to go for a drive and stop and get icecream, and accidentley hit this mans car from all the anger he had. He almost looked as if he were sick when he found out the news of his daughter marrying an African American. Racism is still out there but it isn't as bad as it used to be. Summer001
Before I even knew what the movie was about I could tell that this was going to be a racial issue. I noticed that every other couple in the airport was the same race. As the film continued I put the rest together. I would like to point out the roles of the women in film. Many may seem to think of some remarks to be a bit sexist. I think these women were all feminist. The lady Kristine came off as an empowered woman. She had her own gallery and took a stand to side with her daughter if her father didn't support Joanne. Taylojj2
Regarding Taylojj's comment about how the roles of the women in the film may seem sexist, I agree on the premise that the roles represented in the movie weren't sexist at all. These women were traditional, successful women who cared deeply for their husbands and children. The gallery was like a side note, like a hobby that they enjoyed in their free time. If the roles were switched and it was the man who took sides with the daughter, I do not think you would be calling him a feminist. That matter deals with the racial aspect more than the gender one. These women do not express the normal feminist behavior, instead they show how a traditional feminine woman should behave. They aren't narcissistic or self-centered, instead focusing on the happiness of those around them. It speaks of the inner kindness of their heart when they put aside any idea of empowerment for the good of the family. Instead of reacting angrily over Mr. Drayton's commands, they followed them, with an understanding of the nature of men that goes far deeper than simply a reactionary stance. The ability for a woman to express feminine characteristics in the face of all adversity is what makes a traditional woman both civil and, more importantly, what makes them a representation of the soft-hearted nature of human beings. FreedomUnderGod001
Who else came to dinner? From the beginning of the movie you could tell that there was an issue, socially, with integrated coupling. Many people, in the airport, watched them in awe or disdain as they walked through the terminal. The Taxi driver was decidedly disapproving. When they arrived at Jo’s mother’s gallery she introduced John to Hilary and there was instantly a look of complete shock. Hillary went, so far as to, show up unannounced at the family home, in order to, express her outrage; she was an accurate representation of how mainstream societal perspective viewed integrated relationships. John being 37 years old and Joanna only being 23 was a 14 year age difference, which gave an interesting dynamic to the couple. John was practical and wise in his judgment of the situation that their relationship would be viewed. John approached the situation through a lens of social conflict, he recognized the inequalities and stigmas that they faced and tried to find a resolution. Joanna, on the other hand, was more like a burst of energy and more immature. She was completely idealistic; this was a testament to socialization she received at the hands of her parents. We think that Joanna viewed the whole situation from a point of view closely aligned with symbolic-interaction theory. She simply saw her love for John as reality, and the most important factor to be considered. Even though John’s family came from middle income, he had achieved master status of a doctor, which affords him social mobility. This made their relationship more acceptable, rather than him being a mail carrier like his father. As a group, we thought, Tilley had the most surprising reaction of all the main characters. From the first introduction, Tilley stereotyped John as being up to no good, and shouldn’t be trusted. She viewed the relationship as a social dysfunction, or a grave deviance from the norm. We believe she was looking out for Joanna’s best interest, but she did so with great prejudice. When the engaged couple met each other’s parents, there was great shock and emotions because of the current culture of the time. The parents represent more of structural functional view of society. They begin to question how this marriage could work, according to their view of what makes society stay in balance. You could say they see things a little “old fashion”. The concept of gender inequality was clearly evident also. Both mothers were in shock, however, we believe this was a combination of disbelief and trepidation about the way the husbands would react to the news. The women were more emotional, but this was portrayed as less desirable. It’s worth noting that this film tackles so many issues but still remains steeped in sexist ideals. The movie was certainly very patriarchal. We all questioned the right of the fathers in determining the fate of the newlyweds. This part of the film was interesting because in today’s society if parents disagree the couple usually will not take their opinion into consideration. The men were the head of the house, as if they were kings. We all liked the social perspective of the monsignor, because he lacked all the constraints that bound the other characters. He was involved, but remained mostly objective. All the characters were challenged to reexamine their core beliefs and make value judgments according to the situation. They had to evaluate their social biases and accept new concepts in order to move forward; or at least be willing to walk in another’s shoes. These are abilities we need to have in order to understand sociology and its application to each of our lives. Toby001, LAWS001, TooTall001, Packers001
I'm really curious as to why Tilly was portrayed as having such a strong prejudice against Dr. Prentice and I can only hypothesize as to why this prejudice existed. It mainly seems weird that she would be so prejudiced against African-American males because she herself is African-American. She herself has been a loyal "part of the family" for 20 years and is a respectable and upright woman, so why does she presume that Dr. Prentice is a scoundrel? It's easy to see that she confronts Dr. Prentice and discriminates against him because of his color and because she really wants the best thing for Joanne and the entire family. However, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense why she does it. Maybe it's out of jealousy. Maybe she had to work hard for those 20 years to become part of the family, and she's proud of that status, especially since she's the only colored person. Maybe she feels that her status is threatened by Dr. Prentice who seemingly just waltzed onto the scene and right into the much coveted position of being a family member. The only other explanation I can think of as to why she's so prejudiced is that a lot of bias still existed against African-American's during the 60's among the upper classes of society and perhaps Tilly absorbed some of that prejudice by osmosis, by spending every day with these people. (This analysis, however, is not consistent with the fact that Joanne's parents were staunch liberals who brought her up in an environment that taught equality). thestig001
Tilly was someone who practically looked after Joana since she was a year old. Tilly's was prejudice because of the treatments she got from Joana's family. Joana's family preached on being liberal and the way Tilly was out spoken in the family and was considered a family member, over time her race had adapted to the white family background. She lived in that house for almost twenty-two years, it seems as she had a good grasp on the family and good understanding about the white dynamics. This may come from the kind of surroundings she was from; she hadn't seen real injustices happening outside the home because of racial factors. Tilly was also too concerned about Joanna because of the way all of these things happened, all of sudden and really quick. The way she talked to Dr. John pulling his collar almost seemed that she did not care about where he came from; all that mattered to Tilly was that he was colored. Although it was still interesting to watch and learn throughout the movie that Tilly was most prejudice of them all. I think it would have been better to understand her side more, if her situation in house were portrayed in the movie. khush001
I want to watch the movie again and watch out for all of the things that everyone has pointed out. Tilly was the character that everyone was shocked to hear but at the same time she was the voice of millions of people of that generation. Although, I'm sure most would agree that Sydney is good looking. I think for the older people looking at their children, all they can see is the reaction of the crowd that would wish them apart. Not to metion the generation that would come after and them finding their place in either society. By the time it was accepted by both parents though, the director should have followed up with a movie on the what happened to the children. That would have been just as interesting to watch. Arizona001
I like how you guys brought up Hillary coming to the house uninvited. I was actually surprised that was in the movie. I found that scene to be completely entertaining. I think the humor was that she was fired in a classy way. Joanne's mother did such a good job explaining in detail how and why to get out of her life. I think we experience a lot of people like Hillary in our lives. It is interesting to think of how I would have handled Hillary coming to my house if I were put in the shoes of Joanne's mother. I probably wouldn't have been so nice as to write her a five thousand dollar check. I just found it interesting as well as entertaining. I also liked how your group brought up the couples age difference. That is a pretty large age difference to my upbringing. I am not saying that it is wrong but defiantly strange to my family dynamics. It would really be nice to be Joanne. He already has been through medical school finished his residency and is a professor in his work. She even said in the movie "I will get to be important just for being with him." I found the ageism interesting and the generational gaps neat to watch in this movie. SVT001.
You guys did a good job of pointing out some of the sociological issues we've gone over. I didn't notice in the beginning of the movie that people were staring at them, but it makes sense because the culture of the time would look down on a thing like interracial relationships. I forgot that there was a 14 year age difference between the couple. Even today I think that is quite a bit of difference in age, but when it comes to love age is only a number. I think that John's family when they first heard that their son was dating a white girl seemed more shocked than when Jo told her parents. I don't know if the director did this in purpose or if the actors who played his parents did a better job of showing their emotions. It would've been interesting if the movies producers made Poitier's character less desirable. I think if they did the movie wouldn't have had as much impact because it wouldn't seem like a realistic situation. The way that they portrayed the situation made it seem real and impact-full. glassonion001
Did anyone think about the status class of John? How would a black doctor rate? Would he be considered upper working class? If he was a doctor would this be considered more prestigious than the father that owned a newspaper? Or if he were white would he been of a higher social class with the same credentials? What if John were of a lower class would things have gone way differently? Did John having a successful career and being able to keep their daughter in the same class or living the way she had grown accustomed have any sway in their decisions? Also, I was wondering about the young black girl they showed a couple times. Was this Tillie’s daughter? And why was it considered okay for her to leave with the white boy and get a ride? Was it okay because he was of a lower class status or working class? I was confused by this. I figure Tillie had strong viewpoints on different races being together so why was this okay for her daughter? Was it more of a money issue with her as well, for example Tillie didn’t know that John was a doctor, maybe she thought he was after her for the money. I noticed Matt’s ice cream scene as foreshadowing as well, to show he is capable of changing his mind, or liking something he didn’t think he would right away. WonderWoman001
This movie must have been somewhat of a shocker in 1960's. I'm sure it was a topic of discussion at a dinner or two. The immediate social dysfunction when the couple first appears is apparent. I wonder if today this couple would have made such a stir, I don't believe it would . I think the age difference would be more problematic, rather than color. Today, our society seems to care more about status and money, rather than the testament of being in love. The writers definately wanted to push buttons. The way the men put down the women was prejudicial in itself ; talking down to them and telling them to shut up. And who in their right mind would race to someone's home to demand their bigoted opinion be worth more than a family member? Hillary's conservative view and actions proved too far; and good for the mom to stand up for her daughter and fire her; all of this happening while she is in a somewhat state of shock herself. And kind of neat how the parents raised their daughter to be educated enough to appreciate diversity, even though they themselves had a hard time with her choice. So the priest was an unexpected guest as well. He gave his friend crap for not supporting his daughters choice. He believed the doctor to be highly regarded, and slightly famous medically speaking. I wonder if his positive view is because of his education and status, or if he truly doesn't see color and would support him because it was simply Joey's choice. I would like to believe that a priest would have been supportive anyway. Rosebudd001
I liked how you commented on John and Joey being the only mixed race couple in the airport. My group and I also noticed that. I think the director purposely did that to really set the mood for the movie and foreshadow events to come. It really is interesting though. Nowadays almost wherever you go in America there is at least one mixed race couple. Back then, though, that was so unheard of, as the movie shows. Also, with the big age gap came the other problem of Joey being way too naive and John being much more mature. You could definitely tell by looking at the couple that they were different ages. I do not think there is anything wrong with that, however, the couple could have waited longer to get engaged so Joey could mature more and they both could get to know each other better. It really is odd to me that Tilley had such a strong opinion on John. I guess to me I would have thought Tilley would have been happy to see a black man with a white woman. So, her response shocked me, as I am sure many others watching the movie were shocked. swimmer001
I agree because when her parents met doctor John they were in shock and almost sick to their stomachs looking. Same to when his parents met Joanna. I really liked and agreed witht he mothers on this point of view becaause they remembered what it was like when they first fell in love and because it was more sentimental to them than to the fathers. So the fathers weren't as understanding. I liked how doctor John stood up to his dad and told him color has nothing to do with this and that he loves joanna for who she is, because thats what love is, it isn't about the race of someone. I also noticed that when Joanna and John went to pick up his father in the airport that they were the only white and African American couples walking with eachother or even in the airport. They looked fround upon in front of everyone and maybe that's the reason they had their shocked reactions for. Both parents had the same opinions. the mothers agreed with the marriage and the fathers diagreed with the marriage. This is a part of sexism because both sexes came from the same point of view with eachother. Summer001
I agree with you and I think they both knew it was seen as bad in society That's why they waited to tell there parents. in the beginning of the movie Joey didn't tell her parents she more of just showed them the same way her future husband did with his parents.I also agree with you about the age difference I think it played a big role in this like you said John was more practical and thought about them more in the long run like how society would look at them. But jo really didn't care at all about how society viewed them she was just so optimistic about them as a couple .it shows in the move that the older people cared more about how society viewed them then the younger generation. Player001
I found Tillie’s response equally shocking, but I think it was intended to do that. From my experience, brought up in a middle-class, white household, I grew up thinking that white people or the majority race was the only ones that could be racist. This film, in a way, attempts to combat this false belief. The film really attempts to attack the issue of racism from all sides. Beyond Tillie’s dramatic browbeating of John Prentice while he was changing, another critical scene that demonstrates what I mean by minority racism is found in John’s dialogue with his father. While he makes his case for why he does not “own” his father anything he beautifully says, “you see yourself as a black man, I see myself as a man.” Both Tillie and John’s father present black individuals classifying themselves by their race, a self induced racism. John, in his success, presents a new man, freed from internal racial prejudice. I also found it important that John recognized the challenges before him and the challenges he had already faced. By overcoming those challenges I believe made him into the man seen in this film. He experienced racism while receiving an education giving him the vocabulary to abstractly articulate the prejudice he was experiencing, separating himself from his own experience. In other words he was able to see himself as more than his experiences imposed on him. Karma001
The reaction that Tilly had of John probably spoke of a deeper truth that the average american back in the 1960s didn't want to face. We can assume that Tilly is at the very least 40 years old based on her raising Joanna, which means that would put her birth at the latest 1927. Being raised in the 30s, In the middle of the Great Depression and then through World War II must have been a life-molding experience. Tilly has lived her life and has seen all kinds of both sad and evil behavior. Assuming her mother had her around age 20, and her grandmother at age 20 also, that puts her grandmother growing up in the 1890s, Where the industrial revolution would have been ripe in the memory of the public, and the stories would have been passed down through the generations to Tilly herself. Tilly was probably taught from a young age to watch her own back and of those similar to her, because of all the decades of inequality before the events in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. You guys have to remember that Mr. Prentice Jr was a big anomaly of the time period. In all of her lifetime, John was probably the first black man that Tilly had encountered in his position. She was also conscious of the pop culture of the time. If you noticed, she was around her younger helper a lot, interacted with the delivery boy, and probably had most of the daily interactions with black people or people with low socioeconomic status at that time period. She would have accepted more deeply than any of the other dinner party that the world was structured a certain way and that it couldn't/shouldn't be changed. She was presumably raised to respect all other people, and to not cause any kind of uncivilized trouble. Her upbringing contrasted with the younger generation at the time would have placed her into a sort of pseudo-culture shock situation, where the young were being constantly disrespectful to the elderly (delivery boy to her, car crash incident, how Joanna treats her as a friend rather than a servant doing her job). Considering that John would have been unimaginable to her beforehand, the way she treated the situation with caution and skepticism was completely justified. She had so many other factors in her life that contributed to how she reacted to John. To say something as simple as she was the "most racist" would be to completely ignore the objective sociological perspective, and the importance of being able to empathize with her in order to better understand her behavior. FreedomUnderGod001
(1/2) There are many cases of social issues in this movie. Some of the main ones that I will be talking about are: racism, gender inequality, ageism, and society’s idealization of love. Racism is an issue in this movie as the plot is a black man (John Prentice) trying to get a white man’s (Mr. Draynor) permission to marry his daughter, Joanne. The only true racists in the movie that are directly against the idea of a white man and black man getting married are is Hillary (an employee under Mrs. Draynor), and the black maid Tilly. Hillary show racism in the fact that after being the first to learn the Joanne and John are together she phones Joanne’s mom saying the there is something important back home. She later shows more racism saying the Joanne is doing an appallingly stupid thing causing Mrs. Draynor to fire her on the spot. As a side note this action seems to encourage an attitude of being tolerant to everyone except the intolerant. The maid Tilly is racist in the fact that she is rude to John as soon as he walked through the front door as she didn’t even wish to shake his hand even though they are both black. She makes it known to everyone how she disapproves of the marriage saying things like “All hell has broken loose”, or “I don’t want to see one of my own rise above his station” as if whites are superior and shouldn’t have to marry those beneath them. She also confronts John going so far as to call him a con man that was after Joanne even after he proved that he was a very influential doctor. The reason that Tilly might be so against this may be because of several reasons such as being taught that whites are superior to blacks by her own family or being taught that black people aren’t to be trusted which was why she didn’t believe John when he said he had the best intentions or that maybe she was jealous that he was able to sit at the table that the white people sat at while she couldn’t even though she has been there so long. Another issue in the movie that caused a lot of problems is ageism. There are many instances where the generation gap caused some very noticeable tension. Joanne, who was 23, had no reservations about the fact that John was black and was very headstrong about the fact that she was going to marry him even without her families permission. Even when talking to others her own age they had no reservations at all. However John who was 37 was more aware of what society might think and what it meant to both families to marry across race. The parents who were all around 60-70 all had serious reservations about what society might think about a black and white marrying. A main incidence of ageism occurred at the drive-in when Mr. Draynor got into an accident with a young black man. This young black man was very disrespectful to him calling him a stupid old man and senile and saying there aught to be a law banning older folks to drive even in the face of Mr. Draynor saying he was sorry and that insurance will take care of everything. This kind of shows how the younger generation is very insensitive to the feelings of the older generation. Another example of that is how insensitive that Joanne is to her father’s wishes. While her father is not particularly against her marrying a black man he is very frustrated that he is being rushed into making a reply so quickly and that his daughter is flying away that night to Switzerland.
(2/2) Another issue that was touched on is gender stratification. Some of this was shown during Mr. Draynors last rant when he told his wife that she was too emotional to make a good decision. During the course of the movie it also portrays the women being very emotional. Some other things were than whenever there was another attractive girl such as the other cleaning lady or the server at the drive-in, the other males who were all in a relationship were visibly checking them out in full view of their partner. One last issue portrayed was how society idealized the idea of love. This was shown how in the last rant the dad said the only thing that matter is “what they feel and how much they feel it”. While this is important that is not the only thing that matters. It also seems a bit rushed. They only met a week earlier and yet they are so in love that they are getting married the next week. This is shown as almost heroic even though they probably know barely anything about each other or have not yet even met each other’s parents. I’d like to point out that some of the reasons why Mr. Draynor was hesitant to give his blessing are perfectly reasonable. He didn’t know John at first and didn’t know anything about John, which is why he was reasonable in asking the operator to look him up. Another thing is that he was mainly concerned about the safety of his daughter and eventual grandchildren that might be jeopardized in an interracial marriage. Combined with the fact that he was having a bad day and was extremely rushed in choosing whether or not to give his blessings show that he was perfectly reasonable in his decisions. Delta001, thestig001, khush001, rosebud001
You pointed out two things that i didn't pick up on during the film. First, i never picked up on the idea of Hillary being fired as intolerant. You are correct that her firing was made to seem that her intolerance of John and Joanna's relationship predicated it. However, the concept is by nature hypocritical. Preaching tolerance while practicing intolerance is intolerant. Then again, maybe she was just disliked because she was nosy and had bad taste in art. Second, they trivialize the concept of love and marriage, because they boil it down to feelings. We all know feelings are an important human quality but feelings are transient. He could of praised them for their sound financial backing with regards to John's status and Joanna's family's wealth. He could of spoke more about the quality of their character, which would need to be extraordinary, in order to live the life they were embarking on. However, the father chose to talk about feelings. This monologue came, no more than ten minutes, after he put his wife down for letting feeling cloud her sound judgement. All and all, this movie was fantastic. Its a lot to chew on for students who only began sociology 9-10 days ago. Packers001
Like Packers001 mentioned your group picked up on some points that I did not as well. My view on Hillary was she showed her prejudice to the mother (Katharine Hepburn) by expressing her sorrow for the situation the family would be in due to the inter-racial marriage. Over the next fifty years inter-racial marriages and childbirth will all but eliminate pure races. Only then will the acceptance of the worldwide melting pot of blended people be realized. I also liked how your group really touched on ageism. Joey to me, almost was portrayed as immature due to the fact she wanted to get married within a few weeks. In today's society more people are going to judging you on how fast you get married rather than if your future spouse is a different race. I believe that half the problem was that she wanted to get married so soon. If the young couple gave her dad some time to react I believe that he would not have been half as upset. But, then again it was just a movie so of course there has to be added drama to keep it interesting. I do not have any children but I know if I had one and she or he came to me asking for permission if they can get married only after a few days of knowing each other, I would probably not approve. Toby001
I really enjoyed the ending of your groups comment. I agree completely with why he was hesitant to choose whether or not to give his blessings for the couple. Can you imagine you are getting ready to go out to golf with your best friend and then all of a sudden your daughter brings home a man to marry. Forget the fact that he is even of a different race. If I brought home a women and told my parents we are getting married next week I think they would both die of strokes. I think the fact that he was busy, caught off guard, and surprised really added to the ending of the movie. Yes it was insanely fast for anyone to propose such a thing to his/her parents, but it is still your child. After much thought and consideration it is shown that he will give his blessings. It took a lot of support from his close friend and families. The most influential person to contributing to his choice was John's mother. When looked at the situation from a point of love how cruel do you have to be to not give a blessing. This movie shows that even though we may think we know everything and know what to expect when we wake up in the morning, it may not actually be the case. I find that each day can be completely different and this is what makes life so enjoyable. Not every day will be roses and sunshine, but when the days are sunny so to say you truly appreciate them. By the end of the movie he was not mad at the fact they sprung all of this on him, he was excited for the future and what was ahead for his family. If more people in life could come to conclusions like Joanna's father the world would be a better place. SVT001.
Bringing Tilly up was an important subject for the Blog due to the fact she was the only African American who met John first before the parents and she was very objective to the situation she did not like the idea one bit. To me being bi racial mixed with African American and Caucasian I know when my mother introduced my father to her parents my father being African American my mother’s father did not like the idea at all he was not for it and that was about 25 years ago so I can say that a lot of it is not all about timing but how they were brought up, most of the time parents are expecting “more” from their children. What kept my parents together was my grandfather’s mother who told him he should accept the integrated relationship and which he did. I feel like Tilly was upset because she raised Jo and she would have never expected her to fall in love with an African American man and she also might have been ashamed of John because he was going after a Caucasian woman and not someone of his own race. A lot of stereotyping in the movie which is still used today against African Americans. LAWS001
Starting at the beginning of the movie, there were different things that each of us noticed. We’ve broken those things down by character and relationships to keep it in order. Joey, the young woman who was engaged to John, challenged the cultural norm of the day. Her behavior could be qualified as deviant but in a positive way. She grew up in an ultra-liberal home with a maid who was a black woman. She was naïve when it came to the race/culture war of the time, which made her optimistic about her engagement to John. The love she had for Matilda, the maid, made her love for John a non-issue when it came to race. She grew up seeing herself as a woman who happened to be white and not a white woman, which is how John viewed himself; as a man and not a black man. John, the Dr. was engage to a young woman named Joey. Their courtship lasted only 10 days. He was the older one of the couple and was also the one who could see the problems that they would face starting with both of their parents. He experienced upward mobility within his generation and was an important man to medicine at the time. Both John and Joey were from strong nuclear families where they were the only children. Her mother was a liberal woman who owned her own business. She stood up to her husband and had a sassy mouth that still sounded sophisticated when she gave you a tongue lashing. She was shocked by her daughter’s short courtship but also by the color of the man she brought home. The women were portrayed as romantics and too emotional to deal with the real problems that the younger couple faced. Her dad was a liberal man who owned a newspaper that fought for social injustices; but when confronted with his daughter’s choice of a husband, his views were challenged. He was pleasant man up until he learned of the engagement and was aggravated the whole rest of the movie until he worked through his biases. His mother was a gentle woman who was portrayed as motherly and romantic. She was happy for her son to finally heal after the death of his first wife and sons death. His father was from a generation of people who were oppressed and saw the world from that lens. He applied it to his son’s generation. His views weren’t put out there for us to know exactly what he was thinking but we connected his stance with that of Matilda the maid, who came from the same generation. They had a “caste” system in their mind about where they belonged and didn’t approve of marrying out of it. Matilda was against the engagement based on position but she also brought up Joanna from a baby and sounded like a mother who was trying to protect her child. She wasn’t happy for them, because she was the voice of those who disapproved. The Catholic priest in the movie was the voice of reason. He wasn’t against the interracial marriage and he had a certain insight as to why they worked. He said it took a certain amount of team work for them to deal with what they were up against. He could also clearly articulate what her father was going through saying “there’s nothing better that seeing an old liberal come face to face with his principles.” Joanna’s friends didn’t appear to be bothered by their engagement but they also represented the counter-culture generation of the time who were considered deviant in their quest for social change and societal liberation. The dynamic between the sexes was evident in how much voice was given to the men and their expression of disapproval. The men also told the women what to do and the women were portrayed as submissive to their husbands. The priest who was a male, was also shown as an authority figure to Joanna’s parents. The cultural norms that were challenged then, have a positive outcome now. Wonderwoman001 Swimmer001 Taylojj2 Arizona001
I think you guys basically got everything on point up here. There was definitely age stratification between the couple themselves. Joey was the fresh new generation who thought about love only; only thing that mattered to her was how much she loved Dr. John. Her age called for such a demand, she didn't really care about much about what her parents had to say about the getting them married. She just wanted to put it out there, at the same time understandable because she lived in this high society, liberal upper class. You guys pointed it out right too that because she was attached to her maid Tilly, she never looked at the race barrier with Dr. John as such. Where as talking about age stratification again, Dr. John was very sorted for his age. Due to his past relationship and the tragic incidents that happened with him he only grew much more stronger and vocal about his opinion. To him what parents had to say about the marriage especially Joey's parents was very important. Surprisingly though, when Dr. John’s father came with objection against the marriage he spoke very firmly against his father whereas with Joey’s parents he behaved liberal. khush001
I like how your group mentioned that Joanna thought of herself as a women who happened to be white and John saw himself as a man who happened to be African American. I think because of Joanna's point of view on race, meaning she did not see things in black and white, made John fall really hard in love with her. Even though Joanna seemed a little immature for wanting to get married so suddenly, she also seemed so mature for her age because she was far past her years and time. What I mean by that was when she said she was not a racist, she really meant it. Unlike her father, who said he supported both races and was a liberal, he still struggled with the fact her fiancé was African American. What I also found interesting about this movie was that each set of parents felt the exact same way. the wives were emotional but also supportive of their children and only wanted them to be happy. While the fathers were concerned about their children's or future grandchildren's future. Both the fathers said the exact same lines to their wives something like, "did you ever think our daughter (son) would ever end up with a negro (white women)?" So, if you take a step back it is easy to realize that the majority of people back during this age thought the same things therefore, we are not all that different at all. The only differences/problems there are between races are caused by the ignorant people who do not know better, which is sad. Toby001
I like that you guys brought up the friends of Jo. I think they played an overlooked role in the film. They not only represented this new way of life in the 60's but they also made matters more pressing when they convinced Jo to fly with John out to Sweden. The priest was my favorite character in the film. He was not only the voice of reason but he was the one who didn't care what the others truly thought. He stated his opinions and backed them up throughout the movie. John's mom played an interesting role in the movie. You guys hit the nail on the head when you said that she was a gentle woman. I think she was kind of the "yes woman" of the group, which ever way the crowd goes, she will follow. I don't think that Jo was naive, I would categorize her as a very optimistic person who was head over heels for someone. We've all been in a relationship where we would do just about anything for our significant other, no matter what and I think she was experiencing this feeling for the first time. Overall this movie was a very memorable one and I will definitely re-watch down the road. glassonion001
I like how you guys broke down all the characters. It made it easy to remember who did what . There are so many dynamic issues, sexism , racism , ageism, are just a few. From the begining, the couple felt out of place at the airport. Bystanders were decidely biast, with wide color barriers apparent. The cabdriver acted disguisted twords the couple, and the shock factor continued as they visit the gallery; ultimately proving this visit to be Miss Hillary's sorry downfall later. It was refreshing that the priest was honestly non-biast, and not a neo-conservative that was prevalent back then. It was interesting to witness the other side of the race issue, from the black family's perspective. The black dad didn't like the fact that his son was marring a white girl. In the end the love that Jo's dad had for his wife, changed his biased opinion . Rosebudd001
I think you guys summed this up pretty well,They had a “caste” system in their mind about where they belonged and didn’t approve of marrying out of it. I think that definitely holds to be true, they were open minded liberals but when confronted with stepping outside their caste system they were challenging their beliefs. grateful001
I agree with what you have to say about joey as far as her character in the film is portrayed; However, I see her as more than just a character challenging social norms. In my opinion Joey represents the ideals of the writers or the time period to be more general. I believe that her characteristics of passion, abrupt action, and racial colorblindness are three key attributes desired by the young culture of the time the movie was produced. But even now these ideals seem outdated. In a recent class I took covering race and ethnic conflicts recorded in U.S. history we covered topics such as this one. Back in the time this film was produced colorblindness was all the rage. As John Prentice said, “it’s not that she doesn’t see our race as an important difference, it’s that she doesn’t see it at all” (or something like that). This is outdated because today we celebrate diversity, we value these differences or at least value the thought of it. Holding all races to be equal, in my opinion, it would be tragic if I tried to ignore the differences between my culture and another’s. But this is just common thought, I’m sure this will be subject to change like the values presented in this film. Karma001
I forgot about Joey's friends at dinner, they seemed to be not bothered in the least. I think that had something to do with their deviant behavior when they said they had lived together for years before they were engaged to be married which was outside of the norm at the time. They represented the counter culture at that time and where all for the social change of more equality. I found this movie interesting and that they all had the caste system down and no one wanted to state the obvious that times are changing and moving forward meant getting outside of their comfort zones whether it is good or bad. Joey was the only one to step outside of the box and put a time limit on their father's decisions even though her mind was already made up. Joey and the other kids outside of the diner were ready for the new age society where African Americans can raise their voices and voice their opinions. I didn't like however that Joey's father Matt simply gave the man money and drove off without settling the matter with the police present even if it was 10 more dollars than what it would cost to fix it. He should have had to go to court like everyone else and get a Lawyer. TooTall001
One of the aspects of this film that was brought to our attention was how the behavior of the men in the film reflected a traditional way of thinking. The masculinity of the fathers were contrasted with the behavior of the metrosexual younger adults that were shown in the film. The way the fathers interacted with each other superceded any kind of racial or socioeconomic status. Even though Mr. Prentice Sr. was a retired mailman and a coloured man, and Mr. Drayton was a white man with a big legacy of his newspaper and of being a well-known public figure, they were still able to talk to each other face to face with respect and understanding. They treated the other the same way, as if through a color blind lens. Although there was tension between the races, there wasn’t the outright hate or rage filled discourse that is common in today’s activist organizations. What was really interesting to note was when Mr. Prentice Sr. insulted Mr. Drayton by asking him if he was a fool (or something of the sort). There was no escalation of conflict between them, and no throwing of accusations against a wall. Because it was the Mr. Prentice who said it, I would take a gander that none of you put a second thought to it, but consider the reaction we would have had if it was Mr. Drayton who had called Mr. Prentice Sr a fool. They set aside their emotions and dealt with the immediate problem of the violation of social norms and mores of the time period. This kind of situation was also considered rare, so they didn’t have very much precedent as to how they should proceed based on others. Notice how the men would always take charge of the situation, and the women followed. Mr. Prentice made sure that the Draytons knew exactly what his position was on the situation. The struggle of Mr. Drayton to reconcile with his confliction of his public image and his internal ideology indicates a dynamic nature of the rational decision making process. Had Mr. Drayton not contained his liberal hypocrisy, the movie would have been a lot more straightforward, with either him outright accepting the marriage or outright denying it. He had to live out the consequences of a “Do as I say, not as I do” philosophy. The end result of flying against tradition indicates one of two things: Bravery and Optimism, or Stupidity and Ignorance. Or possibly a combination of them both.As human beings, we strive to build a utopian future in which everything is fair and equal. Although we should always strive to reach the goal of egalitarianism, human nature makes equality ultimately an impossible quest. Especially when we try and throw diversity into the situation as a fundamental goal. Then the ideal simply becomes incoherent. Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner was a prime example of how the Equality of Outcome presents a philosophical ‘hard problem’ in sociology, and how Equality of Opportunity leads to a better and fairer world. The Joanne and John will face many struggles that most people before them had never encountered. If an Equality of Outcome had been in existence, then the entire underlying premise of the unique situation would fall apart. But because an Equality of Opportunity argument was presented as the basis for accepting the marriage, it led to more a brighter looking future and the happiness (or at least non-anger) of all of the parties involved. Grateful001, Summer001, Karma001, FreedomUnderGod001.
We as a group thought this film was very good and relevant to the study of sociology. It was interesting how back in the 1960's the film industry was not afraid to make a movie about societies problems. We as a group found ageism to be prominent in this film. The biggest example was the ice cream drive in scene with the main girl’s mother and father. As the father pulled into the drive in diner he was greeted at his driver’s window by a young blond female. The father could not remember what flavor of ice cream he ate the last time he was there. He asked the attendant what flavor he ordered the last time he was there. The attendant had absolutely no idea and she began to list off multiple favors. The father picked one flavor that he thought sounded like the correct flavor he had before. Shortly after he finished the ice cream he backed into another vehicle causing damage to it. The other driver was a much younger African American male who began shouting at the father. He began shouting statements like "old man, senile, and there should be an age limit to have a license." The father proceeded to hand the younger male 50$ which was 10$ more than it would be to fix. As he drove away the crowd began to clap for the younger male speaking out against the old man. This shows the difference in the generation gap in the 1960's. The younger generation overall were becoming more outspoken and not afraid to speak out in a public setting. It also shows that the older population was becoming more of a minority. The other interesting topic that was discussed was the way sexism played a role in this movie. The biggest example that we thought was the father commanding his wife and daughter. The father on multiple occasions told his wife and daughter to "shut up." There was also a scene in the movie in which he told his wife that she was too emotional and could not comprehend the situation. For this generation it was common for the man to dominate the relationship. He explained to his daughter that it would be the last time he could tell her to shut up. This infers that the son in law will be able and should be able to do command their relationship. This was not only a racial concept but a gender concept for this time period. There is much more gender equality in society today verses in the 1960's when this movie was made. In this movie there are so many examples of society generalizations. The movie had many different examples of deviance, the most obvious being the two young people wanting to marry despite their racial differences. This movie is set I n the 1960's. It was a huge deal due to the segregation in communities and places of business. Racial tensions were high in this time period. It was not uncommon to see active racists in society. This movie took a major social issue and put it in a real life situation for Americans to think about. Overall this movie shows that social chance is possible among past, present, and future generations. Today race is less of an issue then in the generation in the movie. It unfortunately is still a societal issue in some communities around the United States. We as a group found it surprising how many social issues that are found in this movie which are still prevalent today as they were 50 years ago. SVT001, grassonion001, and player001.
ReplyDeleteI agree with you on the point where it seemed during the movie that the men were in charge. The women had a say so but ultimately they were all waiting around to see what Joey’s dad either was going to disapprove or approve of the relationship between John and Joey. The way they talked down to the women but at the same time listened to their opinions. As it was John’s mother who talked Matt into really thinking about when he fell in love with Kris to remember what that was like and how that is what it’s all about not color. The black woman who wasn’t in the same class as Matt or race but he respected her opinion was interesting to me. And I suppose would have definitely gone against the social norms of that time. I liked the idea that Joey was raised to she didn’t see color, interesting again that her parents raised her that way but didn’t realize what the latent effect of that might be…her child marrying outside of her race and age range. Overall I think it spoke to a lot of people whereas people should practice what they preach. Believe what you are going to believe but stand behind it 100% or even close to that. WonderWoman001
DeleteThere were some sociological issues that they brought up for soicety to look at in the 60's. Some of the things I noticed was that, the meeting was in the more affluent home, and the "dominate" race at that time were the ones with the most lines. Their struggles were shown more that the Afican-American couple. No one else but the white male got to work it out and have a whole monologue. But, still, for the time frame and the subject matter it was an definitely a huge step in the right direction. Arizona001
DeleteI think your analysis of the car accident scene and it's ageism is spot on, but I want to present another interpretation of it. When I watched the movie, that scene made me kind of indignant about the young man's behavior as well as the behavior of all the young people. Here Joanne's father had made a mistake and was taking the appropriate action to make up for his mistake, but the young man wouldn't even listen to him. He generously gave more money than what was required, but the young man just blasted him and insulted him to kingdom come, exhibiting severe his severe prejudice against old people. I thought it was good that Joanne's father got somewhat angry at how unreasonable the young man was being, because if he had just taken the abuse and not gotten his dander up at all, it would not have been very accurate. I know that if I was trying to offer to fix a situation I had caused and already felt bad about it, if someone was yelling at me and insulting me, I would get pretty mad. And then, the fact that the whole crowd of young people applauded after Joanne's Dad drove away only made me more outraged at the injustice of the situation.
DeleteI would like to suggest that this presentation of the youth as not caring about the old people and being prejudiced against them was done intentionally by the director in order to clearly demonstrate the gap that existed between the young people who embraced the sexual revolution and the older generation who did not. Maybe what we really get through this scene is a little taste of what the older population perception of the youth was during the 1960's.
thestig001
I saw a lot of symbolism in the ice cream scene also. I found it fascinating that he thought he ordered the correct ice cream, but soon became irate when he realized it wasn't what he expected. It only took a few bites until he discovered it was actually very good. I saw that as a metaphor or foreshadowing of his view of John and Joanna's marriage. He had expectations according to his own social construct, for Joanna's future. When her and John thrust this situation on him, he became angry and defensive. This wasn't what he imagined her marriage announcement to entail. His own personal ethos was called into question; he was trapped by his own words and ideals. Much like his confusion about the ice cream, he blindly trusted that his assumptions would materialize as he intended. However, after one taste, he realized the new ice cream was not only palatable, but delightful. As was the case with John and Joanna's relationship and marriage. It didn't matter if it was the same ice cream flavor as before, because he wasn't constrained by only liking one kind. So to with John, it was new and different, but John was a good man and a loving mate to Joanna. I think this director did a masterful job of tackling all this social conflict with great tact. Packers001
DeleteInteresting how your group mentioned that ageism played a big factor in the movie. You gave some very good examples of how the movie displayed ageism by the example of the ice cream incident. It was also interesting how you said that the film industry was not afraid to make a movie about the problems with society. How very right you are. Nowadays you do not see movies that talk about gay rights or abortion, which are big topics now.The film industry now is a little but more reserved about what they make. Interesting how you also mentioned sexism. Our group also said sexism played a big part in the movie. You could tell that Joey's dad did not treat Joey's mom or Joey the same way he would treat another man. I also had never thought about how when the dad said that is was the last time he could tell Joey to shut-up, he was implying it would be John's right to talk to her like that now. Even though ageism and sexism are still around today, it is good to know that both are declining. I like how this movie really made people think. By doing this, it could possibly have helped make interracial marriages more common.
Deleteswimmer001
I agree it seemed as though each person had their own role and played them well. Matt had the final say so but wanted to talk to John’s father to see what he had to say and make sure he wasn't the only one to disapprove of the marriage. Next it seemed that Cristina had almost as much say so in the decision making and last but not least John’s mother was quiet and really only talked honestly to Christina like what she had to say wasn't as important as the rest of them. Being Joey was probably raised as much by the maid as the parents she could see past the color of one’s skin and fell in love with the man she loved. Joey is so young she didn't think about what others would say or think or how society was going to treat their children. John being much older and wiser knew the hardships life was going to throw at them being of different race in a time of inequality and prejudice. This film took place in a time of turmoil with the Vietnam War raging on and before all of the social movements. Joey’s father brought the family up as fighting Liberal morals and norms and when it came down to it didn't stand behind it all the way however Cristina did when she fired Hillary. TooTall001
DeleteThe movie was a great example for the sociology class in many ways the scenes in the movie gave great examples of what society goes through now and than. I felt like when his father backed up into the African American man with his car and the man began cursing at Jo's father right there to me kind of messed it up for John due to the fact that her father already did not like the fact she brought a African American man home but a successful man at that and the way the man was cursing at her father kind of put him in a bad pace especially with African Americans. In this Movie I also felt like the father of Jo was the one that wore the pants in the relationship and the mother was more the emotional one which was the same for Johns family as well, the woman basically had no say for what the couple did. I also agree with you on when he told his wife and daughter to shut up a few times my eyebrows did lift just because to me that is disrespectful but back than that might of been fine for them to do. LAWS001
DeleteThat's pretty cool how you caught the ageism in the scene where the older gentleman bumps the black guy. It's was so easy to see the obvious issues of race, we may have missed many more hints at other social issues. This makes me also wonder if the younger generation in any time period, whether it be in the 1960s to present. Have we gotten better at not being so prejudice towards the elderly. I think is an ongoing issue that constantly being over shadowed by other forms of prejudice acts. I agree that this film definitely took a huge step by addressing these huger issues that were still fresh. I would consider the film itself to be quite deviant. Taylojj2
DeleteDuring the movie with the part of the car accident scene I thought was interesting because it displayed the authority of racism. When Joanna's father hit the African American stranger car with his car, Joannas father didn't seem to care a whole lot and was yelling at the stranger as if he did something wrong. I thought it was intersting that when they hit each others car they hollored and yelled then got back in their cars and left. Insurance wasn't really around that much then, and if your car got hit you were screwed. Since racism was still around during this time, joannas father acted like he was more superior than the African American when it was her fathers fault of hitting this mans car. Also he told the stranger to buy a new car for $50 dollars at the dealership, which was big because now a days for a near car it cost someone thousands of dollars. The mother just sat in the car like nothing had happened when her husband hit the mans car. Joannas father was so shocked that he wanted to go for a drive and stop and get icecream, and accidentley hit this mans car from all the anger he had. He almost looked as if he were sick when he found out the news of his daughter marrying an African American. Racism is still out there but it isn't as bad as it used to be.
DeleteSummer001
Before I even knew what the movie was about I could tell that this was going to be a racial issue. I noticed that every other couple in the airport was the same race. As the film continued I put the rest together. I would like to point out the roles of the women in film. Many may seem to think of some remarks to be a bit sexist. I think these women were all feminist. The lady Kristine came off as an empowered woman. She had her own gallery and took a stand to side with her daughter if her father didn't support Joanne. Taylojj2
DeleteRegarding Taylojj's comment about how the roles of the women in the film may seem sexist, I agree on the premise that the roles represented in the movie weren't sexist at all. These women were traditional, successful women who cared deeply for their husbands and children. The gallery was like a side note, like a hobby that they enjoyed in their free time. If the roles were switched and it was the man who took sides with the daughter, I do not think you would be calling him a feminist. That matter deals with the racial aspect more than the gender one. These women do not express the normal feminist behavior, instead they show how a traditional feminine woman should behave. They aren't narcissistic or self-centered, instead focusing on the happiness of those around them. It speaks of the inner kindness of their heart when they put aside any idea of empowerment for the good of the family. Instead of reacting angrily over Mr. Drayton's commands, they followed them, with an understanding of the nature of men that goes far deeper than simply a reactionary stance. The ability for a woman to express feminine characteristics in the face of all adversity is what makes a traditional woman both civil and, more importantly, what makes them a representation of the soft-hearted nature of human beings. FreedomUnderGod001
DeleteWho else came to dinner?
ReplyDeleteFrom the beginning of the movie you could tell that there was an issue, socially, with integrated coupling. Many people, in the airport, watched them in awe or disdain as they walked through the terminal. The Taxi driver was decidedly disapproving. When they arrived at Jo’s mother’s gallery she introduced John to Hilary and there was instantly a look of complete shock. Hillary went, so far as to, show up unannounced at the family home, in order to, express her outrage; she was an accurate representation of how mainstream societal perspective viewed integrated relationships. John being 37 years old and Joanna only being 23 was a 14 year age difference, which gave an interesting dynamic to the couple. John was practical and wise in his judgment of the situation that their relationship would be viewed. John approached the situation through a lens of social conflict, he recognized the inequalities and stigmas that they faced and tried to find a resolution. Joanna, on the other hand, was more like a burst of energy and more immature. She was completely idealistic; this was a testament to socialization she received at the hands of her parents. We think that Joanna viewed the whole situation from a point of view closely aligned with symbolic-interaction theory. She simply saw her love for John as reality, and the most important factor to be considered. Even though John’s family came from middle income, he had achieved master status of a doctor, which affords him social mobility. This made their relationship more acceptable, rather than him being a mail carrier like his father. As a group, we thought, Tilley had the most surprising reaction of all the main characters. From the first introduction, Tilley stereotyped John as being up to no good, and shouldn’t be trusted. She viewed the relationship as a social dysfunction, or a grave deviance from the norm. We believe she was looking out for Joanna’s best interest, but she did so with great prejudice. When the engaged couple met each other’s parents, there was great shock and emotions because of the current culture of the time. The parents represent more of structural functional view of society. They begin to question how this marriage could work, according to their view of what makes society stay in balance. You could say they see things a little “old fashion”. The concept of gender inequality was clearly evident also. Both mothers were in shock, however, we believe this was a combination of disbelief and trepidation about the way the husbands would react to the news. The women were more emotional, but this was portrayed as less desirable. It’s worth noting that this film tackles so many issues but still remains steeped in sexist ideals. The movie was certainly very patriarchal. We all questioned the right of the fathers in determining the fate of the newlyweds. This part of the film was interesting because in today’s society if parents disagree the couple usually will not take their opinion into consideration. The men were the head of the house, as if they were kings. We all liked the social perspective of the monsignor, because he lacked all the constraints that bound the other characters. He was involved, but remained mostly objective. All the characters were challenged to reexamine their core beliefs and make value judgments according to the situation. They had to evaluate their social biases and accept new concepts in order to move forward; or at least be willing to walk in another’s shoes. These are abilities we need to have in order to understand sociology and its application to each of our lives. Toby001, LAWS001, TooTall001, Packers001
I'm really curious as to why Tilly was portrayed as having such a strong prejudice against Dr. Prentice and I can only hypothesize as to why this prejudice existed. It mainly seems weird that she would be so prejudiced against African-American males because she herself is African-American. She herself has been a loyal "part of the family" for 20 years and is a respectable and upright woman, so why does she presume that Dr. Prentice is a scoundrel? It's easy to see that she confronts Dr. Prentice and discriminates against him because of his color and because she really wants the best thing for Joanne and the entire family. However, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense why she does it. Maybe it's out of jealousy. Maybe she had to work hard for those 20 years to become part of the family, and she's proud of that status, especially since she's the only colored person. Maybe she feels that her status is threatened by Dr. Prentice who seemingly just waltzed onto the scene and right into the much coveted position of being a family member. The only other explanation I can think of as to why she's so prejudiced is that a lot of bias still existed against African-American's during the 60's among the upper classes of society and perhaps Tilly absorbed some of that prejudice by osmosis, by spending every day with these people. (This analysis, however, is not consistent with the fact that Joanne's parents were staunch liberals who brought her up in an environment that taught equality).
Deletethestig001
Tilly was someone who practically looked after Joana since she was a year old. Tilly's was prejudice because of the treatments she got from Joana's family. Joana's family preached on being liberal and the way Tilly was out spoken in the family and was considered a family member, over time her race had adapted to the white family background. She lived in that house for almost twenty-two years, it seems as she had a good grasp on the family and good understanding about the white dynamics. This may come from the kind of surroundings she was from; she hadn't seen real injustices happening outside the home because of racial factors. Tilly was also too concerned about Joanna because of the way all of these things happened, all of sudden and really quick. The way she talked to Dr. John pulling his collar almost seemed that she did not care about where he came from; all that mattered to Tilly was that he was colored. Although it was still interesting to watch and learn throughout the movie that Tilly was most prejudice of them all. I think it would have been better to understand her side more, if her situation in house were portrayed in the movie.
Deletekhush001
I want to watch the movie again and watch out for all of the things that everyone has pointed out. Tilly was the character that everyone was shocked to hear but at the same time she was the voice of millions of people of that generation. Although, I'm sure most would agree that Sydney is good looking.
DeleteI think for the older people looking at their children, all they can see is the reaction of the crowd that would wish them apart. Not to metion the generation that would come after and them finding their place in either society. By the time it was accepted by both parents though, the director should have followed up with a movie on the what happened to the children. That would have been just as interesting to watch. Arizona001
I like how you guys brought up Hillary coming to the house uninvited. I was actually surprised that was in the movie. I found that scene to be completely entertaining. I think the humor was that she was fired in a classy way. Joanne's mother did such a good job explaining in detail how and why to get out of her life. I think we experience a lot of people like Hillary in our lives. It is interesting to think of how I would have handled Hillary coming to my house if I were put in the shoes of Joanne's mother. I probably wouldn't have been so nice as to write her a five thousand dollar check. I just found it interesting as well as entertaining. I also liked how your group brought up the couples age difference. That is a pretty large age difference to my upbringing. I am not saying that it is wrong but defiantly strange to my family dynamics. It would really be nice to be Joanne. He already has been through medical school finished his residency and is a professor in his work. She even said in the movie "I will get to be important just for being with him." I found the ageism interesting and the generational gaps neat to watch in this movie. SVT001.
DeleteYou guys did a good job of pointing out some of the sociological issues we've gone over. I didn't notice in the beginning of the movie that people were staring at them, but it makes sense because the culture of the time would look down on a thing like interracial relationships. I forgot that there was a 14 year age difference between the couple. Even today I think that is quite a bit of difference in age, but when it comes to love age is only a number. I think that John's family when they first heard that their son was dating a white girl seemed more shocked than when Jo told her parents. I don't know if the director did this in purpose or if the actors who played his parents did a better job of showing their emotions. It would've been interesting if the movies producers made Poitier's character less desirable. I think if they did the movie wouldn't have had as much impact because it wouldn't seem like a realistic situation. The way that they portrayed the situation made it seem real and impact-full. glassonion001
DeleteDid anyone think about the status class of John? How would a black doctor rate? Would he be considered upper working class? If he was a doctor would this be considered more prestigious than the father that owned a newspaper? Or if he were white would he been of a higher social class with the same credentials? What if John were of a lower class would things have gone way differently? Did John having a successful career and being able to keep their daughter in the same class or living the way she had grown accustomed have any sway in their decisions? Also, I was wondering about the young black girl they showed a couple times. Was this Tillie’s daughter? And why was it considered okay for her to leave with the white boy and get a ride? Was it okay because he was of a lower class status or working class? I was confused by this. I figure Tillie had strong viewpoints on different races being together so why was this okay for her daughter? Was it more of a money issue with her as well, for example Tillie didn’t know that John was a doctor, maybe she thought he was after her for the money. I noticed Matt’s ice cream scene as foreshadowing as well, to show he is capable of changing his mind, or liking something he didn’t think he would right away. WonderWoman001
DeleteThis movie must have been somewhat of a shocker in 1960's. I'm sure it was a topic of discussion at a dinner or two. The immediate social dysfunction when the couple first appears is apparent. I wonder if today this couple would have made such a stir, I don't believe it would . I think the age difference would be more problematic, rather than color. Today, our society seems to care more about status and money, rather than the testament of being in love. The writers definately wanted to push buttons. The way the men put down the women was prejudicial in itself ; talking down to them and telling them to shut up. And who in their right mind would race to someone's home to demand their bigoted opinion be worth more than a family member? Hillary's conservative view and actions proved too far; and good for the mom to stand up for her daughter and fire her; all of this happening while she is in a somewhat state of shock herself. And kind of neat how the parents raised their daughter to be educated enough to appreciate diversity, even though they themselves had a hard time with her choice. So the priest was an unexpected guest as well. He gave his friend crap for not supporting his daughters choice. He believed the doctor to be highly regarded, and slightly famous medically speaking. I wonder if his positive view is because of his education and status, or if he truly doesn't see color and would support him because it was simply Joey's choice. I would like to believe that a priest would have been supportive anyway. Rosebudd001
DeleteI liked how you commented on John and Joey being the only mixed race couple in the airport. My group and I also noticed that. I think the director purposely did that to really set the mood for the movie and foreshadow events to come. It really is interesting though. Nowadays almost wherever you go in America there is at least one mixed race couple. Back then, though, that was so unheard of, as the movie shows. Also, with the big age gap came the other problem of Joey being way too naive and John being much more mature. You could definitely tell by looking at the couple that they were different ages. I do not think there is anything wrong with that, however, the couple could have waited longer to get engaged so Joey could mature more and they both could get to know each other better. It really is odd to me that Tilley had such a strong opinion on John. I guess to me I would have thought Tilley would have been happy to see a black man with a white woman. So, her response shocked me, as I am sure many others watching the movie were shocked.
Deleteswimmer001
I agree because when her parents met doctor John they were in shock and almost sick to their stomachs looking. Same to when his parents met Joanna. I really liked and agreed witht he mothers on this point of view becaause they remembered what it was like when they first fell in love and because it was more sentimental to them than to the fathers. So the fathers weren't as understanding. I liked how doctor John stood up to his dad and told him color has nothing to do with this and that he loves joanna for who she is, because thats what love is, it isn't about the race of someone. I also noticed that when Joanna and John went to pick up his father in the airport that they were the only white and African American couples walking with eachother or even in the airport. They looked fround upon in front of everyone and maybe that's the reason they had their shocked reactions for. Both parents had the same opinions. the mothers agreed with the marriage and the fathers diagreed with the marriage. This is a part of sexism because both sexes came from the same point of view with eachother.
DeleteSummer001
I agree with you and I think they both knew it was seen as bad in society That's why they waited to tell there parents. in the beginning of the movie Joey didn't tell her parents she more of just showed them the same way her future husband did with his parents.I also agree with you about the age difference I think it played a big role in this like you said John was more practical and thought about them more in the long run like how society would look at them. But jo really didn't care at all about how society viewed them she was just so optimistic about them as a couple .it shows in the move that the older people cared more about how society viewed them then the younger generation. Player001
DeleteI found Tillie’s response equally shocking, but I think it was intended to do that. From my experience, brought up in a middle-class, white household, I grew up thinking that white people or the majority race was the only ones that could be racist. This film, in a way, attempts to combat this false belief. The film really attempts to attack the issue of racism from all sides.
DeleteBeyond Tillie’s dramatic browbeating of John Prentice while he was changing, another critical scene that demonstrates what I mean by minority racism is found in John’s dialogue with his father. While he makes his case for why he does not “own” his father anything he beautifully says, “you see yourself as a black man, I see myself as a man.” Both Tillie and John’s father present black individuals classifying themselves by their race, a self induced racism. John, in his success, presents a new man, freed from internal racial prejudice.
I also found it important that John recognized the challenges before him and the challenges he had already faced. By overcoming those challenges I believe made him into the man seen in this film. He experienced racism while receiving an education giving him the vocabulary to abstractly articulate the prejudice he was experiencing, separating himself from his own experience. In other words he was able to see himself as more than his experiences imposed on him. Karma001
The reaction that Tilly had of John probably spoke of a deeper truth that the average american back in the 1960s didn't want to face. We can assume that Tilly is at the very least 40 years old based on her raising Joanna, which means that would put her birth at the latest 1927. Being raised in the 30s, In the middle of the Great Depression and then through World War II must have been a life-molding experience. Tilly has lived her life and has seen all kinds of both sad and evil behavior. Assuming her mother had her around age 20, and her grandmother at age 20 also, that puts her grandmother growing up in the 1890s, Where the industrial revolution would have been ripe in the memory of the public, and the stories would have been passed down through the generations to Tilly herself. Tilly was probably taught from a young age to watch her own back and of those similar to her, because of all the decades of inequality before the events in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. You guys have to remember that Mr. Prentice Jr was a big anomaly of the time period. In all of her lifetime, John was probably the first black man that Tilly had encountered in his position. She was also conscious of the pop culture of the time. If you noticed, she was around her younger helper a lot, interacted with the delivery boy, and probably had most of the daily interactions with black people or people with low socioeconomic status at that time period. She would have accepted more deeply than any of the other dinner party that the world was structured a certain way and that it couldn't/shouldn't be changed. She was presumably raised to respect all other people, and to not cause any kind of uncivilized trouble. Her upbringing contrasted with the younger generation at the time would have placed her into a sort of pseudo-culture shock situation, where the young were being constantly disrespectful to the elderly (delivery boy to her, car crash incident, how Joanna treats her as a friend rather than a servant doing her job). Considering that John would have been unimaginable to her beforehand, the way she treated the situation with caution and skepticism was completely justified. She had so many other factors in her life that contributed to how she reacted to John. To say something as simple as she was the "most racist" would be to completely ignore the objective sociological perspective, and the importance of being able to empathize with her in order to better understand her behavior. FreedomUnderGod001
Delete(1/2) There are many cases of social issues in this movie. Some of the main ones that I will be talking about are: racism, gender inequality, ageism, and society’s idealization of love. Racism is an issue in this movie as the plot is a black man (John Prentice) trying to get a white man’s (Mr. Draynor) permission to marry his daughter, Joanne.
ReplyDeleteThe only true racists in the movie that are directly against the idea of a white man and black man getting married are is Hillary (an employee under Mrs. Draynor), and the black maid Tilly. Hillary show racism in the fact that after being the first to learn the Joanne and John are together she phones Joanne’s mom saying the there is something important back home. She later shows more racism saying the Joanne is doing an appallingly stupid thing causing Mrs. Draynor to fire her on the spot. As a side note this action seems to encourage an attitude of being tolerant to everyone except the intolerant. The maid Tilly is racist in the fact that she is rude to John as soon as he walked through the front door as she didn’t even wish to shake his hand even though they are both black. She makes it known to everyone how she disapproves of the marriage saying things like “All hell has broken loose”, or “I don’t want to see one of my own rise above his station” as if whites are superior and shouldn’t have to marry those beneath them. She also confronts John going so far as to call him a con man that was after Joanne even after he proved that he was a very influential doctor. The reason that Tilly might be so against this may be because of several reasons such as being taught that whites are superior to blacks by her own family or being taught that black people aren’t to be trusted which was why she didn’t believe John when he said he had the best intentions or that maybe she was jealous that he was able to sit at the table that the white people sat at while she couldn’t even though she has been there so long.
Another issue in the movie that caused a lot of problems is ageism. There are many instances where the generation gap caused some very noticeable tension. Joanne, who was 23, had no reservations about the fact that John was black and was very headstrong about the fact that she was going to marry him even without her families permission. Even when talking to others her own age they had no reservations at all. However John who was 37 was more aware of what society might think and what it meant to both families to marry across race. The parents who were all around 60-70 all had serious reservations about what society might think about a black and white marrying. A main incidence of ageism occurred at the drive-in when Mr. Draynor got into an accident with a young black man. This young black man was very disrespectful to him calling him a stupid old man and senile and saying there aught to be a law banning older folks to drive even in the face of Mr. Draynor saying he was sorry and that insurance will take care of everything. This kind of shows how the younger generation is very insensitive to the feelings of the older generation. Another example of that is how insensitive that Joanne is to her father’s wishes. While her father is not particularly against her marrying a black man he is very frustrated that he is being rushed into making a reply so quickly and that his daughter is flying away that night to Switzerland.
(2/2) Another issue that was touched on is gender stratification. Some of this was shown during Mr. Draynors last rant when he told his wife that she was too emotional to make a good decision. During the course of the movie it also portrays the women being very emotional. Some other things were than whenever there was another attractive girl such as the other cleaning lady or the server at the drive-in, the other males who were all in a relationship were visibly checking them out in full view of their partner.
ReplyDeleteOne last issue portrayed was how society idealized the idea of love. This was shown how in the last rant the dad said the only thing that matter is “what they feel and how much they feel it”. While this is important that is not the only thing that matters. It also seems a bit rushed. They only met a week earlier and yet they are so in love that they are getting married the next week. This is shown as almost heroic even though they probably know barely anything about each other or have not yet even met each other’s parents.
I’d like to point out that some of the reasons why Mr. Draynor was hesitant to give his blessing are perfectly reasonable. He didn’t know John at first and didn’t know anything about John, which is why he was reasonable in asking the operator to look him up. Another thing is that he was mainly concerned about the safety of his daughter and eventual grandchildren that might be jeopardized in an interracial marriage. Combined with the fact that he was having a bad day and was extremely rushed in choosing whether or not to give his blessings show that he was perfectly reasonable in his decisions.
Delta001, thestig001, khush001, rosebud001
You pointed out two things that i didn't pick up on during the film. First, i never picked up on the idea of Hillary being fired as intolerant. You are correct that her firing was made to seem that her intolerance of John and Joanna's relationship predicated it. However, the concept is by nature hypocritical. Preaching tolerance while practicing intolerance is intolerant. Then again, maybe she was just disliked because she was nosy and had bad taste in art. Second, they trivialize the concept of love and marriage, because they boil it down to feelings. We all know feelings are an important human quality but feelings are transient. He could of praised them for their sound financial backing with regards to John's status and Joanna's family's wealth. He could of spoke more about the quality of their character, which would need to be extraordinary, in order to live the life they were embarking on. However, the father chose to talk about feelings. This monologue came, no more than ten minutes, after he put his wife down for letting feeling cloud her sound judgement. All and all, this movie was fantastic. Its a lot to chew on for students who only began sociology 9-10 days ago. Packers001
DeleteLike Packers001 mentioned your group picked up on some points that I did not as well. My view on Hillary was she showed her prejudice to the mother (Katharine Hepburn) by expressing her sorrow for the situation the family would be in due to the inter-racial marriage. Over the next fifty years inter-racial marriages and childbirth will all but eliminate pure races. Only then will the acceptance of the worldwide melting pot of blended people be realized. I also liked how your group really touched on ageism. Joey to me, almost was portrayed as immature due to the fact she wanted to get married within a few weeks. In today's society more people are going to judging you on how fast you get married rather than if your future spouse is a different race. I believe that half the problem was that she wanted to get married so soon. If the young couple gave her dad some time to react I believe that he would not have been half as upset. But, then again it was just a movie so of course there has to be added drama to keep it interesting. I do not have any children but I know if I had one and she or he came to me asking for permission if they can get married only after a few days of knowing each other, I would probably not approve. Toby001
DeleteI really enjoyed the ending of your groups comment. I agree completely with why he was hesitant to choose whether or not to give his blessings for the couple. Can you imagine you are getting ready to go out to golf with your best friend and then all of a sudden your daughter brings home a man to marry. Forget the fact that he is even of a different race. If I brought home a women and told my parents we are getting married next week I think they would both die of strokes. I think the fact that he was busy, caught off guard, and surprised really added to the ending of the movie. Yes it was insanely fast for anyone to propose such a thing to his/her parents, but it is still your child. After much thought and consideration it is shown that he will give his blessings. It took a lot of support from his close friend and families. The most influential person to contributing to his choice was John's mother. When looked at the situation from a point of love how cruel do you have to be to not give a blessing. This movie shows that even though we may think we know everything and know what to expect when we wake up in the morning, it may not actually be the case. I find that each day can be completely different and this is what makes life so enjoyable. Not every day will be roses and sunshine, but when the days are sunny so to say you truly appreciate them. By the end of the movie he was not mad at the fact they sprung all of this on him, he was excited for the future and what was ahead for his family. If more people in life could come to conclusions like Joanna's father the world would be a better place. SVT001.
DeleteBringing Tilly up was an important subject for the Blog due to the fact she was the only African American who met John first before the parents and she was very objective to the situation she did not like the idea one bit. To me being bi racial mixed with African American and Caucasian I know when my mother introduced my father to her parents my father being African American my mother’s father did not like the idea at all he was not for it and that was about 25 years ago so I can say that a lot of it is not all about timing but how they were brought up, most of the time parents are expecting “more” from their children. What kept my parents together was my grandfather’s mother who told him he should accept the integrated relationship and which he did. I feel like Tilly was upset because she raised Jo and she would have never expected her to fall in love with an African American man and she also might have been ashamed of John because he was going after a Caucasian woman and not someone of his own race. A lot of stereotyping in the movie which is still used today against African Americans. LAWS001
DeleteStarting at the beginning of the movie, there were different things that each of us noticed. We’ve broken those things down by character and relationships to keep it in order.
ReplyDeleteJoey, the young woman who was engaged to John, challenged the cultural norm of the day. Her behavior could be qualified as deviant but in a positive way. She grew up in an ultra-liberal home with a maid who was a black woman. She was naïve when it came to the race/culture war of the time, which made her optimistic about her engagement to John. The love she had for Matilda, the maid, made her love for John a non-issue when it came to race. She grew up seeing herself as a woman who happened to be white and not a white woman, which is how John viewed himself; as a man and not a black man.
John, the Dr. was engage to a young woman named Joey. Their courtship lasted only 10 days. He was the older one of the couple and was also the one who could see the problems that they would face starting with both of their parents. He experienced upward mobility within his generation and was an important man to medicine at the time. Both John and Joey were from strong nuclear families where they were the only children.
Her mother was a liberal woman who owned her own business. She stood up to her husband and had a sassy mouth that still sounded sophisticated when she gave you a tongue lashing. She was shocked by her daughter’s short courtship but also by the color of the man she brought home. The women were portrayed as romantics and too emotional to deal with the real problems that the younger couple faced.
Her dad was a liberal man who owned a newspaper that fought for social injustices; but when confronted with his daughter’s choice of a husband, his views were challenged. He was pleasant man up until he learned of the engagement and was aggravated the whole rest of the movie until he worked through his biases.
His mother was a gentle woman who was portrayed as motherly and romantic. She was happy for her son to finally heal after the death of his first wife and sons death.
His father was from a generation of people who were oppressed and saw the world from that lens. He applied it to his son’s generation. His views weren’t put out there for us to know exactly what he was thinking but we connected his stance with that of Matilda the maid, who came from the same generation. They had a “caste” system in their mind about where they belonged and didn’t approve of marrying out of it.
Matilda was against the engagement based on position but she also brought up Joanna from a baby and sounded like a mother who was trying to protect her child. She wasn’t happy for them, because she was the voice of those who disapproved.
The Catholic priest in the movie was the voice of reason. He wasn’t against the interracial marriage and he had a certain insight as to why they worked. He said it took a certain amount of team work for them to deal with what they were up against. He could also clearly articulate what her father was going through saying “there’s nothing better that seeing an old liberal come face to face with his principles.”
Joanna’s friends didn’t appear to be bothered by their engagement but they also represented the counter-culture generation of the time who were considered deviant in their quest for social change and societal liberation.
The dynamic between the sexes was evident in how much voice was given to the men and their expression of disapproval. The men also told the women what to do and the women were portrayed as submissive to their husbands. The priest who was a male, was also shown as an authority figure to Joanna’s parents.
The cultural norms that were challenged then, have a positive outcome now.
Wonderwoman001 Swimmer001 Taylojj2 Arizona001
I think you guys basically got everything on point up here. There was definitely age stratification between the couple themselves. Joey was the fresh new generation who thought about love only; only thing that mattered to her was how much she loved Dr. John. Her age called for such a demand, she didn't really care about much about what her parents had to say about the getting them married. She just wanted to put it out there, at the same time understandable because she lived in this high society, liberal upper class. You guys pointed it out right too that because she was attached to her maid Tilly, she never looked at the race barrier with Dr. John as such. Where as talking about age stratification again, Dr. John was very sorted for his age. Due to his past relationship and the tragic incidents that happened with him he only grew much more stronger and vocal about his opinion. To him what parents had to say about the marriage especially Joey's parents was very important. Surprisingly though, when Dr. John’s father came with objection against the marriage he spoke very firmly against his father whereas with Joey’s parents he behaved liberal. khush001
DeleteI like how your group mentioned that Joanna thought of herself as a women who happened to be white and John saw himself as a man who happened to be African American. I think because of Joanna's point of view on race, meaning she did not see things in black and white, made John fall really hard in love with her. Even though Joanna seemed a little immature for wanting to get married so suddenly, she also seemed so mature for her age because she was far past her years and time. What I mean by that was when she said she was not a racist, she really meant it. Unlike her father, who said he supported both races and was a liberal, he still struggled with the fact her fiancé was African American. What I also found interesting about this movie was that each set of parents felt the exact same way. the wives were emotional but also supportive of their children and only wanted them to be happy. While the fathers were concerned about their children's or future grandchildren's future. Both the fathers said the exact same lines to their wives something like, "did you ever think our daughter (son) would ever end up with a negro (white women)?" So, if you take a step back it is easy to realize that the majority of people back during this age thought the same things therefore, we are not all that different at all. The only differences/problems there are between races are caused by the ignorant people who do not know better, which is sad. Toby001
DeleteI like that you guys brought up the friends of Jo. I think they played an overlooked role in the film. They not only represented this new way of life in the 60's but they also made matters more pressing when they convinced Jo to fly with John out to Sweden. The priest was my favorite character in the film. He was not only the voice of reason but he was the one who didn't care what the others truly thought. He stated his opinions and backed them up throughout the movie. John's mom played an interesting role in the movie. You guys hit the nail on the head when you said that she was a gentle woman. I think she was kind of the "yes woman" of the group, which ever way the crowd goes, she will follow. I don't think that Jo was naive, I would categorize her as a very optimistic person who was head over heels for someone. We've all been in a relationship where we would do just about anything for our significant other, no matter what and I think she was experiencing this feeling for the first time. Overall this movie was a very memorable one and I will definitely re-watch down the road. glassonion001
DeleteI like how you guys broke down all the characters. It made it easy to remember who did what . There are so many dynamic issues, sexism , racism , ageism, are just a few. From the begining, the couple felt out of place at the airport. Bystanders were decidely biast, with wide color barriers apparent. The cabdriver acted disguisted twords the couple, and the shock factor continued as they visit the gallery; ultimately proving this visit to be Miss Hillary's sorry downfall later. It was refreshing that the priest was honestly non-biast, and not a neo-conservative that was prevalent back then. It was interesting to witness the other side of the race issue, from the black family's perspective. The black dad didn't like the fact that his son was marring a white girl. In the end the love that Jo's dad had for his wife, changed his biased opinion . Rosebudd001
DeleteI think you guys summed this up pretty well,They had a “caste” system in their mind about where they belonged and didn’t approve of marrying out of it. I think that definitely holds to be true, they were open minded liberals but when confronted with stepping outside their caste system they were challenging their beliefs.
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I agree with what you have to say about joey as far as her character in the film is portrayed; However, I see her as more than just a character challenging social norms. In my opinion Joey represents the ideals of the writers or the time period to be more general. I believe that her characteristics of passion, abrupt action, and racial colorblindness are three key attributes desired by the young culture of the time the movie was produced. But even now these ideals seem outdated.
DeleteIn a recent class I took covering race and ethnic conflicts recorded in U.S. history we covered topics such as this one. Back in the time this film was produced colorblindness was all the rage. As John Prentice said, “it’s not that she doesn’t see our race as an important difference, it’s that she doesn’t see it at all” (or something like that). This is outdated because today we celebrate diversity, we value these differences or at least value the thought of it. Holding all races to be equal, in my opinion, it would be tragic if I tried to ignore the differences between my culture and another’s. But this is just common thought, I’m sure this will be subject to change like the values presented in this film. Karma001
I forgot about Joey's friends at dinner, they seemed to be not bothered in the least. I think that had something to do with their deviant behavior when they said they had lived together for years before they were engaged to be married which was outside of the norm at the time. They represented the counter culture at that time and where all for the social change of more equality. I found this movie interesting and that they all had the caste system down and no one wanted to state the obvious that times are changing and moving forward meant getting outside of their comfort zones whether it is good or bad. Joey was the only one to step outside of the box and put a time limit on their father's decisions even though her mind was already made up. Joey and the other kids outside of the diner were ready for the new age society where African Americans can raise their voices and voice their opinions. I didn't like however that Joey's father Matt simply gave the man money and drove off without settling the matter with the police present even if it was 10 more dollars than what it would cost to fix it. He should have had to go to court like everyone else and get a Lawyer. TooTall001
ReplyDeleteOne of the aspects of this film that was brought to our attention was how the behavior of the men in the film reflected a traditional way of thinking. The masculinity of the fathers were contrasted with the behavior of the metrosexual younger adults that were shown in the film. The way the fathers interacted with each other superceded any kind of racial or socioeconomic status. Even though Mr. Prentice Sr. was a retired mailman and a coloured man, and Mr. Drayton was a white man with a big legacy of his newspaper and of being a well-known public figure, they were still able to talk to each other face to face with respect and understanding. They treated the other the same way, as if through a color blind lens. Although there was tension between the races, there wasn’t the outright hate or rage filled discourse that is common in today’s activist organizations. What was really interesting to note was when Mr. Prentice Sr. insulted Mr. Drayton by asking him if he was a fool (or something of the sort). There was no escalation of conflict between them, and no throwing of accusations against a wall. Because it was the Mr. Prentice who said it, I would take a gander that none of you put a second thought to it, but consider the reaction we would have had if it was Mr. Drayton who had called Mr. Prentice Sr a fool. They set aside their emotions and dealt with the immediate problem of the violation of social norms and mores of the time period. This kind of situation was also considered rare, so they didn’t have very much precedent as to how they should proceed based on others. Notice how the men would always take charge of the situation, and the women followed. Mr. Prentice made sure that the Draytons knew exactly what his position was on the situation. The struggle of Mr. Drayton to reconcile with his confliction of his public image and his internal ideology indicates a dynamic nature of the rational decision making process. Had Mr. Drayton not contained his liberal hypocrisy, the movie would have been a lot more straightforward, with either him outright accepting the marriage or outright denying it. He had to live out the consequences of a “Do as I say, not as I do” philosophy. The end result of flying against tradition indicates one of two things: Bravery and Optimism, or Stupidity and Ignorance. Or possibly a combination of them both.As human beings, we strive to build a utopian future in which everything is fair and equal. Although we should always strive to reach the goal of egalitarianism, human nature makes equality ultimately an impossible quest. Especially when we try and throw diversity into the situation as a fundamental goal. Then the ideal simply becomes incoherent. Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner was a prime example of how the Equality of Outcome presents a philosophical ‘hard problem’ in sociology, and how Equality of Opportunity leads to a better and fairer world. The Joanne and John will face many struggles that most people before them had never encountered. If an Equality of Outcome had been in existence, then the entire underlying premise of the unique situation would fall apart. But because an Equality of Opportunity argument was presented as the basis for accepting the marriage, it led to more a brighter looking future and the happiness (or at least non-anger) of all of the parties involved. Grateful001, Summer001, Karma001, FreedomUnderGod001.
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