This video is very informative an full of useful examples and information. The social control theory makes a good point about the interplay between the informal and formal. That the law can say for example that was given that weed is illegal and use crime and punishment. At the same time your family can say weed is good and a person is around it everyday. I also like Merton's explanation of the four different types of deviants. Myself personally would fall under the ritualistic deviant. To me i'm fine with the means of getting a secure job and paying the bills, but I don't have much interest in "keeping up with the Jones'". Finally on the microlevel I like the Cultural Transmission theory. My wife works as a teacher in a "bad school". She blames the language, violence, bad grades, and the inability to have the things on the parents and not the children. Hearing what she deals with everyday, I do believe that this deviance is learned foremost from the family culture they are growing up in and being exposed to the crime and deviance their parents and families expose them to over and over again everyday.Camp012
I agree, I think that bad behavior always goes back to the parents. With that said, it also ties into lack of education, I think that the more educated you are the more you can differentiate between what your parents taught you and whether or not it's something you want to teach your children as well. All this knowledge and teaching defines who you are as a person. Firedancer012
I agree that the way kids are brought up always goes back to the parents. On the other hand a mom who cannot afford to get out of the "hood" can raise her kids with the best morals and education, but she still has to let him/her out in the world to make their own decisions on who they hang out with and what they allow themselves to conform to. In a lot of cases its only to keep themselves from being bullied or looked down on. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink(food012)
Bad behavior does not always reflect what is taught in the home. There are children that act one way while with parents and a totally different way when around their peers. poeticLB012
Deviance and crime is a very interesting subject to me. I can understand how it all starts with the setting of your family. Some people overcome and some don't. The innovators want the money but they break the law and find ways to hussle people to get it. How could that life not be automatically passed down from one generation to the other? If you aren't taught the right way from the beginning you begin to think this is the normal way of gaining what you want and need. I guess I am a ritualist because I really want to be a nurse. I want to care for people and see improvement. I want to feel like I've helped someone at the end of the day. Money isn't everything. There are very few people I know who are retreatists. I just don't see how these kinds of people get by in life. They depend on others just to meet their basic needs and they are satisfied with just that. The rebels are just bullies if you ask me. They force whatever power they have in whatever way they want to change society. Differential justice is different types of people, both commiting crimes, but the poor are more quickly punished. The wealthy somehow think its ok to deviate the way that they do. I will agree that society treats men and women differently. Shivalry is something I never really thought of that women use to be deviant. Now I can think of a few instances when female friends get pulled over and end up not getting a ticket. Differential association makes sense. If a person is exposed to crime repeatedly they will engage in that behavior at some time. A great example is the mafia or gangs. It all starts with your family and your surroundings folks. nana012
I agree with you I think it is most about how and who we are around when growing up we learn what we should and should not do. Everything thing and everyone in our life effects us in someway. Horatio012
I totally agree with you on this view. The home is where it all starts. If a child is told no once in a while, instead of being given everything because the parent "wants to give their child everything they didn't have", the world would be much different. Children have an "entitlement" attitude and do not respect authority. It's pathetic. Kane012
I agree that parents are the main source of informal control. But again, what about the parents that gave it their all and did everything by the books but yet some how still ended up with the delinquent child? Should we really blame them because no matter how hard they tried their child chose the wrong path? momtoM.L.M.012
I love how this instructor described the different types of Merton's categories of people, mostly because you could see how her definition of retreatism is a "40 year old pot smoking hippie who still lives in his parent's house." In other places of the world, smoking marijuana or living with your family until your 40 years of age is normal. In fact, you could be considered a deviant because you don't follow those cultural norms. Because we live in America, we're used to the standards that are implemented by society, and most of us conform to them. The most fascinating thing to me is how the word or concept of "deviance" can change wildly from culture to culture. In America, someone is considered deviant if they have piercings and tattoos. If someone is non-religious or an atheist, that's considered deviant in America. In Indian culture a woman could be considered immodest if she doesn't cover her head or face, and therefore be considered a deviant. This was a captivating lesson. Firedancer012
I agree that our standards are different than other parts of the world. In America though, I think it is becoming more acceptable for children to stay with their parents to a later age. And I'm not saying I didn't "smoke" when I was younger but I think the old pot analogy is a bad one. I know many people who still do use and agree that it should be legalized entirely. These people do not live with their parents and are in fact very successful. In America it's kinda bass ackwards because alcohol is far more dangerous and hazardous to your health. I work in the health field and don't see many "potheads" but plenty of alcoholics with health problems from it or people who have hurt themselves or others while intoxicated come into the hospital everyday.Camp012
Crime and deviance is everywhere in the works and some are more serious than others. We have people who obey the law and we have some that do not. However, I think not everyone follows every law, like the examples she gave like driving over 5 to 10 over the speed limit. Who has not done that? I agree with Merton's theory that it is not just the poor who always does the crime there have been plenty of rich people who think that since they have all that money and power that they can get away with anything. So they push the buttons a little to see if they can get away and I think some do just because they have not got caught yet but the ones that have does not seem they get punishes and bed as the middle class and the poor. When they are sent to prison its call a country club instead of going to a real federal prison. This was very informative with all the examples. Horatio012
This is a very informative video as it breaks out some of the main theories, but that is what they all are, theories. Conclusions are drawn from an opinion of the sociologist. How he or she "sees the world". I really fell that most of the theories have some similarities across the board. Crime and deviance are all there, but how far someone is willing to push the limits because of what they see is right or wrong. For me, it all leads back to the home. In my house growing up, it was very strict and I did get in to trouble a couple times, pushing that limit. But I was also forced into confessing what I did and paid the consequences. I'll tell you, it changed me and how I conducted myself from that point on. Now have I broken a law here or there? Yes, the speeding example, etc. Nothing major, though. If I was not forced in to confessing and paying the consequences, it would have been a different story. I would have gone down a different path. Society needs the checks and balances. Everyone in the world has their own opinion of right and wrong. Some agree on them and other do not. I really believe that there is good in all people, but some people go the wrong way for some reason. Kane012
I enjoyed the breakdown on all the theories and examples but theu seem some or similar or at least contain same points or theories. Theres a couple I really seem to be drawn to or agree with. I believe that it starts at home what we are taught or what we have seen as the normal growing up. I fyou have parents that have expectations of you and have shown you hardwork has paid off and teaches you morals and to value yourself. I believe you have self confidence and self respect that you will stand up for yourself in certain situations and not follow the crowd to "fit" in or be accepted. You will understand there are consquences for your actions. But if you grow up in a family with people lying or atealing to get what they want. Doing illegal things to move up being corrupt you will become numb to this and there is no shock value of the punishment. I also believe about the labeling if you are told you are this or defined by one mistake hard to climb out. You can just be weighed down and give up if you can never get out of the "box" you were put in my society. Think theres a combination of all of them working together and against one another. compassof4012
This video is so funny!! I hope we have more like this. What caught my attention is the guy who got caught looking told him his butt looked good. He was either gay or a confident straight man who had no problem telling the truth. I thought he looked nice in them to where I was looking. lol!! To me it doesn't take much for a man to stare, yoga pants or not. I had a moment with my husband today as we were walking into a store he told me I need to stop wearing yoga pants because they made my butt stand out more for people to look. I've never had or liked yoga pants until a year ago when I started to gain some weight so they became my comfort because they were black and easy to put on. Attention was the last thing I thought of. After watching this video I see how they can look from far.lol!!! Men and women do the same when we see the opposite sex looking "good" in clothing. That is just the way our culture is. We go to the gym for ourselves first, but do not mind the extra compliments. I am gonna throw away the three pair I have and just stick to the gym though! (food012)
The video was very interesting, and very informative. I liked how she broke each theory down in full detail. I agree with every theory she went over and each example she gave, with each theory and definition. The topic I found most interesting was social control, behaviors in a society, conformity and obedience. Also conformity ,going along with those who have no special right to direct our behaviors. In my opinion , mostly everyone , falls under this category, as to no special right to direct our behaviors , for example, the government , most parents, gang members , schools, and it can also be work related. People that have the power and more authority giving information or spreading information, we to attend to believe and take in what we here and seek ,do we have a choice to make a decision not to listen or feed into the information that is given to use if we don't believe it, yes, but how do people no what's false or accurate information , if its coming from are actual government , who pretty much makes all decisions and rules for us, our are teacher, who educates us, our are boss who is an charge , that we get orders from. I also liked the example she gave about 20 or 30 years ago , tattoos were deviance , but its totally acceptable today, I think tattoos can deviant but there not horrible. Mertons deviance typology chart, also I think , broke down some really good examples. Socialbutterfly
I enjoyed this video inparticular. The whole time she was talking I was thinking of my teenage daughter as an example. Since she just started her freshman year of high school, I find myself worried about peer pressures and social influences more than ever. She is fortunate enough to attend an affluent school district. The trouble I am seeing is these kids have zero concern for anything of value. Surprisingly, the use of drugs is quite common due to the money most of these kids have access to. So when discussing the difference between conformity and obedience, I think that kids are pulled in both directions all the time. Do they want to follow the leader so to speak or do they do whats right? I do think that the parents role is major. Informal control is so important when raising kids. But what about those parents that did it all right and still, somewhere, their kid made the wrong choices. As far as formal control, I believe its enough to scare most of us straight. It is so intriguing to me to hear the stories about criminals who just dont care. The control theory is interesting. Is it more relevant in other cultures? What about 50 years ago?? momtoM.L.M.012
This video is very informative and I like how she broke each theory down and explained each in a very efficient way. I feel like social control and conforming are similar. If you have a group of friends who drink and do drugs chances are you are going to do those things as well. You are conforming to what you have surrounded yourself around, and allowing your social surroundings control your actions. If you surround yourself around straight edge people who don't drink, do drugs or party chances are you will conform to that social situation. I like the example of the tattoos also. Years ago it was considered bad or like she said deviant, now and days tattoos aren't looked down on or really frowned upon. So many people have them now and days I think it has just become a norm, and is accepted. Piercing would also be a good example, ears used to be the one thing you get pierced, now anywhere you have skin seems like a good place for a piercing. People are even getting dermal now which is implanted in your skin. I think society has just started to accept the things that are happening. If you cant change it you usually conform to it. I believe that is the world we now live in. newmommy2be012
This video was quite detailed and organized which I appreciated. The topic of social control spoke a lot too me. Just getting through high school, I am fresh out of the time where control and influences are a big issue. That's not to say that social control is not present throughout the rest of our lives, but at this time it seems to influence us the most. The fact it we all have a choice or decision in every matter we involves ourselves in social. We choice to conform to peers/ other influential groups at this time and still many people fall under the category of having no special right to dictate our behaviors. That's not to say we are "free" whether consciously or subconsciously we are striving to fit in and be apart. I remember the lengths I'd go to, to make a friend happy or show a teacher I was good student. Conformity makes us do a lot, maybe even more than obedience. farmgirl012
Deviance and crime caught my attention. The speaker said, "If left in out own devices all of us would deviate ." We all break rules in our own way on a daily basis. We need controls because it makes us hesitate before we take that step to be devious or do a crime. That is why we need the controls like Durkheim said deviance is a good thing because it makes us good people feel better. Its like a treat you give to your child for being good. It encourages us to continue to do the right thing, but we ourselves can only decide what is deviant, but formal control decides what is a down right crime.We all want to be successful in what we do and that always include money. For example, A woman with a neutral gender name Jerry, is applying for a male dominant job. She lets them think she is a man by not correcting them through email when they refer to her as a man until she gets in the interview. That is deviant in to me, but if this woman sent resume identifying herself as a man and purposely making a her profile to be a man is lying and will be breaking rules. I agree with me Merten being rejected of your goals really determine how far a person will go. I don't think you have to be poor to deviate or commit a crime I just think it all depends on that person. (food012)
This video is full useful of information. She covered a lot and gave several examples in a fairly short amount of time. There is so much that influences society today. How does one raise children in this crazy mixed up world? We as parents teach our children to live by our rules, man's and God's laws and still they may get labeled a deviant by society. They must be obedient to us, teachers and other authority figures. They are surrounded by their friends, bullies and others who just don't like them for whatever reason. How do they not deviate from the norm and give in to peer pressure? By surrounding themselves with law abiding, good citizens like us? How do they not conform to the crowd? Conformity plays a big part in their lives, especially during their teen years. So many teens are trying to find their identity. Unfortunately, they find themselves labeled criminal deviants,poeticLB012
This video is very informative an full of useful examples and information. The social control theory makes a good point about the interplay between the informal and formal. That the law can say for example that was given that weed is illegal and use crime and punishment. At the same time your family can say weed is good and a person is around it everyday. I also like Merton's explanation of the four different types of deviants. Myself personally would fall under the ritualistic deviant. To me i'm fine with the means of getting a secure job and paying the bills, but I don't have much interest in "keeping up with the Jones'". Finally on the microlevel I like the Cultural Transmission theory. My wife works as a teacher in a "bad school". She blames the language, violence, bad grades, and the inability to have the things on the parents and not the children. Hearing what she deals with everyday, I do believe that this deviance is learned foremost from the family culture they are growing up in and being exposed to the crime and deviance their parents and families expose them to over and over again everyday.Camp012
ReplyDeleteI agree, I think that bad behavior always goes back to the parents. With that said, it also ties into lack of education, I think that the more educated you are the more you can differentiate between what your parents taught you and whether or not it's something you want to teach your children as well. All this knowledge and teaching defines who you are as a person. Firedancer012
DeleteI agree that the way kids are brought up always goes back to the parents. On the other hand a mom who cannot afford to get out of the "hood" can raise her kids with the best morals and education, but she still has to let him/her out in the world to make their own decisions on who they hang out with and what they allow themselves to conform to. In a lot of cases its only to keep themselves from being bullied or looked down on. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink(food012)
DeleteBad behavior does not always reflect what is taught in the home. There are children that act one way while with parents and a totally different way when around their peers. poeticLB012
DeleteDeviance and crime is a very interesting subject to me. I can understand how it all starts with the setting of your family. Some people overcome and some don't. The innovators want the money but they break the law and find ways to hussle people to get it. How could that life not be automatically passed down from one generation to the other? If you aren't taught the right way from the beginning you begin to think this is the normal way of gaining what you want and need. I guess I am a ritualist because I really want to be a nurse. I want to care for people and see improvement. I want to feel like I've helped someone at the end of the day. Money isn't everything. There are very few people I know who are retreatists. I just don't see how these kinds of people get by in life. They depend on others just to meet their basic needs and they are satisfied with just that. The rebels are just bullies if you ask me. They force whatever power they have in whatever way they want to change society. Differential justice is different types of people, both commiting crimes, but the poor are more quickly punished. The wealthy somehow think its ok to deviate the way that they do. I will agree that society treats men and women differently. Shivalry is something I never really thought of that women use to be deviant. Now I can think of a few instances when female friends get pulled over and end up not getting a ticket. Differential association makes sense. If a person is exposed to crime repeatedly they will engage in that behavior at some time. A great example is the mafia or gangs. It all starts with your family and your surroundings folks. nana012
ReplyDeleteI agree with you I think it is most about how and who we are around when growing up we learn what we should and should not do. Everything thing and everyone in our life effects us in someway. Horatio012
DeleteI totally agree with you on this view. The home is where it all starts. If a child is told no once in a while, instead of being given everything because the parent "wants to give their child everything they didn't have", the world would be much different. Children have an "entitlement" attitude and do not respect authority. It's pathetic. Kane012
DeleteI agree that parents are the main source of informal control. But again, what about the parents that gave it their all and did everything by the books but yet some how still ended up with the delinquent child? Should we really blame them because no matter how hard they tried their child chose the wrong path? momtoM.L.M.012
DeleteI love how this instructor described the different types of Merton's categories of people, mostly because you could see how her definition of retreatism is a "40 year old pot smoking hippie who still lives in his parent's house." In other places of the world, smoking marijuana or living with your family until your 40 years of age is normal. In fact, you could be considered a deviant because you don't follow those cultural norms. Because we live in America, we're used to the standards that are implemented by society, and most of us conform to them. The most fascinating thing to me is how the word or concept of "deviance" can change wildly from culture to culture. In America, someone is considered deviant if they have piercings and tattoos. If someone is non-religious or an atheist, that's considered deviant in America. In Indian culture a woman could be considered immodest if she doesn't cover her head or face, and therefore be considered a deviant. This was a captivating lesson. Firedancer012
ReplyDeleteI agree that our standards are different than other parts of the world. In America though, I think it is becoming more acceptable for children to stay with their parents to a later age. And I'm not saying I didn't "smoke" when I was younger but I think the old pot analogy is a bad one. I know many people who still do use and agree that it should be legalized entirely. These people do not live with their parents and are in fact very successful. In America it's kinda bass ackwards because alcohol is far more dangerous and hazardous to your health. I work in the health field and don't see many "potheads" but plenty of alcoholics with health problems from it or people who have hurt themselves or others while intoxicated come into the hospital everyday.Camp012
DeleteCrime and deviance is everywhere in the works and some are more serious than others. We have people who obey the law and we have some that do not. However, I think not everyone follows every law, like the examples she gave like driving over 5 to 10 over the speed limit. Who has not done that? I agree with Merton's theory that it is not just the poor who always does the crime there have been plenty of rich people who think that since they have all that money and power that they can get away with anything. So they push the buttons a little to see if they can get away and I think some do just because they have not got caught yet but the ones that have does not seem they get punishes and bed as the middle class and the poor. When they are sent to prison its call a country club instead of going to a real federal prison. This was very informative with all the examples. Horatio012
ReplyDeleteThis is a very informative video as it breaks out some of the main theories, but that is what they all are, theories. Conclusions are drawn from an opinion of the sociologist. How he or she "sees the world". I really fell that most of the theories have some similarities across the board. Crime and deviance are all there, but how far someone is willing to push the limits because of what they see is right or wrong. For me, it all leads back to the home. In my house growing up, it was very strict and I did get in to trouble a couple times, pushing that limit. But I was also forced into confessing what I did and paid the consequences. I'll tell you, it changed me and how I conducted myself from that point on. Now have I broken a law here or there? Yes, the speeding example, etc. Nothing major, though. If I was not forced in to confessing and paying the consequences, it would have been a different story. I would have gone down a different path. Society needs the checks and balances. Everyone in the world has their own opinion of right and wrong. Some agree on them and other do not. I really believe that there is good in all people, but some people go the wrong way for some reason. Kane012
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed the breakdown on all the theories and examples but theu seem some or similar or at least contain same points or theories. Theres a couple I really seem to be drawn to or agree with. I believe that it starts at home what we are taught or what we have seen as the normal growing up. I fyou have parents that have expectations of you and have shown you hardwork has paid off and teaches you morals and to value yourself. I believe you have self confidence and self respect that you will stand up for yourself in certain situations and not follow the crowd to "fit" in or be accepted. You will understand there are consquences for your actions. But if you grow up in a family with people lying or atealing to get what they want. Doing illegal things to move up being corrupt you will become numb to this and there is no shock value of the punishment. I also believe about the labeling if you are told you are this or defined by one mistake hard to climb out. You can just be weighed down and give up if you can never get out of the "box" you were put in my society. Think theres a combination of all of them working together and against one another. compassof4012
ReplyDeleteThis video is so funny!! I hope we have more like this. What caught my attention is the guy who got caught looking told him his butt looked good. He was either gay or a confident straight man who had no problem telling the truth. I thought he looked nice in them to where I was looking. lol!! To me it doesn't take much for a man to stare, yoga pants or not. I had a moment with my husband today as we were walking into a store he told me I need to stop wearing yoga pants because they made my butt stand out more for people to look. I've never had or liked yoga pants until a year ago when I started to gain some weight so they became my comfort because they were black and easy to put on. Attention was the last thing I thought of. After watching this video I see how they can look from far.lol!!! Men and women do the same when we see the opposite sex looking "good" in clothing. That is just the way our culture is. We go to the gym for ourselves first, but do not mind the extra compliments. I am gonna throw away the three pair I have and just stick to the gym though! (food012)
ReplyDeleteThe video was very interesting, and very informative. I liked how she broke each theory down in full detail. I agree with every theory she went over and each example she gave, with each theory and definition. The topic I found most interesting was social control, behaviors in a society, conformity and obedience. Also conformity ,going along with those who have no special right to direct our behaviors. In my opinion , mostly everyone , falls under this category, as to no special right to direct our behaviors , for example, the government , most parents, gang members , schools, and it can also be work related. People that have the power and more authority giving information or spreading information, we to attend to believe and take in what we here and seek ,do we have a choice to make a decision not to listen or feed into the information that is given to use if we don't believe it, yes, but how do people no what's false or accurate information , if its coming from are actual government , who pretty much makes all decisions and rules for us, our are teacher, who educates us, our are boss who is an charge , that we get orders from. I also liked the example she gave about 20 or 30 years ago , tattoos were deviance , but its totally acceptable today, I think tattoos can deviant but there not horrible. Mertons deviance typology chart, also I think , broke down some really good examples. Socialbutterfly
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed this video inparticular. The whole time she was talking I was thinking of my teenage daughter as an example. Since she just started her freshman year of high school, I find myself worried about peer pressures and social influences more than ever. She is fortunate enough to attend an affluent school district. The trouble I am seeing is these kids have zero concern for anything of value. Surprisingly, the use of drugs is quite common due to the money most of these kids have access to.
ReplyDeleteSo when discussing the difference between conformity and obedience, I think that kids are pulled in both directions all the time. Do they want to follow the leader so to speak or do they do whats right? I do think that the parents role is major. Informal control is so important when raising kids. But what about those parents that did it all right and still, somewhere, their kid made the wrong choices. As far as formal control, I believe its enough to scare most of us straight. It is so intriguing to me to hear the stories about criminals who just dont care. The control theory is interesting. Is it more relevant in other cultures? What about 50 years ago?? momtoM.L.M.012
This video is very informative and I like how she broke each theory down and explained each in a very efficient way. I feel like social control and conforming are similar. If you have a group of friends who drink and do drugs chances are you are going to do those things as well. You are conforming to what you have surrounded yourself around, and allowing your social surroundings control your actions. If you surround yourself around straight edge people who don't drink, do drugs or party chances are you will conform to that social situation.
ReplyDeleteI like the example of the tattoos also. Years ago it was considered bad or like she said deviant, now and days tattoos aren't looked down on or really frowned upon. So many people have them now and days I think it has just become a norm, and is accepted. Piercing would also be a good example, ears used to be the one thing you get pierced, now anywhere you have skin seems like a good place for a piercing. People are even getting dermal now which is implanted in your skin. I think society has just started to accept the things that are happening. If you cant change it you usually conform to it. I believe that is the world we now live in. newmommy2be012
This video was quite detailed and organized which I appreciated. The topic of social control spoke a lot too me. Just getting through high school, I am fresh out of the time where control and influences are a big issue. That's not to say that social control is not present throughout the rest of our lives, but at this time it seems to influence us the most. The fact it we all have a choice or decision in every matter we involves ourselves in social. We choice to conform to peers/ other influential groups at this time and still many people fall under the category of having no special right to dictate our behaviors. That's not to say we are "free" whether consciously or subconsciously we are striving to fit in and be apart. I remember the lengths I'd go to, to make a friend happy or show a teacher I was good student. Conformity makes us do a lot, maybe even more than obedience. farmgirl012
ReplyDeleteDeviance and crime caught my attention. The speaker said, "If left in out own devices all of us would deviate ." We all break rules in our own way on a daily basis. We need controls because it makes us hesitate before we take that step to be devious or do a crime. That is why we need the controls like Durkheim said deviance is a good thing because it makes us good people feel better. Its like a treat you give to your child for being good. It encourages us to continue to do the right thing, but we ourselves can only decide what is deviant, but formal control decides what is a down right crime.We all want to be successful in what we do and that always include money. For example, A woman with a neutral gender name Jerry, is applying for a male dominant job. She lets them think she is a man by not correcting them through email when they refer to her as a man until she gets in the interview. That is deviant in to me, but if this woman sent resume identifying herself as a man and purposely making a her profile to be a man is lying and will be breaking rules. I agree with me Merten being rejected of your goals really determine how far a person will go. I don't think you have to be poor to deviate or commit a crime I just think it all depends on that person. (food012)
ReplyDeleteThis video is full useful of information. She covered a lot and gave several examples in a fairly short amount of time. There is so much that influences society today. How does one raise children in this crazy mixed up world? We as parents teach our children to live by our rules, man's and God's laws and still they may get labeled a deviant by society. They must be obedient to us, teachers and other authority figures. They are surrounded by their friends, bullies and others who just don't like them for whatever reason. How do they not deviate from the norm and give in to peer pressure? By surrounding themselves with law abiding, good citizens like us? How do they not conform to the crowd? Conformity plays a big part in their lives, especially during their teen years. So many teens are trying to find their identity. Unfortunately, they find themselves labeled criminal deviants,poeticLB012
ReplyDelete