I cannot resist speaking on deviance after watching this scene. This is a perfect representation of the struggle between older and newer generations. Usually culture lag refers to immaterial aspects of culture failing to keep pace with material aspects of culture such as technology, but sometimes no material culture shift must occur. In this case, there is clearly some culture lag between two immaterial aspects of culture; the law (one’s ability to marry interracially), and the typical families’ acceptance of the act itself. Often, there are practical (regardless of moral footing) reasons for the lag. A conflict theorist would tell you that money is a common variable in resisting social change. Wealthy individuals and groups are likely to do whatever it takes to protect their financial interests, including bribery, lobbying, ad campaigns, etc. However, when no obvious practical motives for resisting change can be found, but the resistance is still present, then it is almost certainly the result of anxiety about contradicting the status quo – also known as deviance. Mr. Prentice claims that his condemnation of the ensuing marriage results from concerns over what his son will endure because of other people’s disapproval, but the other characters (including John and Joanna) are all just as aware of the inevitable hardships, yet they still approve (apart from Tillie who has the same problem as Mr. Prentice). The real reason is the only differentiating factor; unlike the others, he cannot get over his own personal anxiety about how deviant he perceives the engagement to be. This is a perfect example of how subjective and dependent upon culture deviance is.
The second and third things I’d like to talk about are two things that I think not very many people considered while watching the movie, or at the very least didn’t consider too strongly while watching this clip thanks to the very distracting racial issues. Those things are class or income mobility, and family. If you want to categorize them broadly as a sociological concept, you could place this under social and global stratification, race and ethnicity, economics, politics, education, sex, gender, culture and societies, social change or social movements, or several others. The issue of financial status and importance of family fits into virtually all sociological subjects in some way, and financial mobility even deeper still. I’m fascinated by, and am glad that the producers or directors of this film thought to make a big deal about John and his father’s status contrast. John is arguably the most successful person that ever appears on screen in this film, while his father was a postman. The emphasis on this detail in the film is no mistake of course. On the one hand, it highlights the issue of race and deviance by eliminating any other doubts the families might have about John’s eligibility as a husband for Joanna – nobody can argue that he is unfit in any way other than race. On the other hand, I think it is also a progressive statement about how available financial mobility is to all of us who are lucky enough to live in the United States. Based on the dialogue, John’s family clearly had a rough time of it, but even with no more than a postman as a father he was still able to work his way up to being one of the most successful people one could imagine thanks to his father’s sacrifice and his own hard work and responsibility. This is an important message even today for the youth of our nation, especially in larger cities, and doubly so to any prospective fathers and mothers as to the importance of an intact and functional family unit for a child’s development and success later in life. Poet005
I found your blog thoughtful and inspiring. Yes, here in this country a poor interracial boy like Barack Obama can educate himself and become President. I am sure that his mother and fathers parents (even if in Africa) went through the same agonizing fears that the movies characters portrayed. As many of our students are young, please think about the importance of intact and functional family units when you are married and raising families. You will never have a more important job.grandma005
I feel the verbal exchange between two generations from different times is an example of Emile Durkeim's Structural Functional Theory. He felt deviance is a necessary part of social organization. We in the human race were all born with unique qualities and different bodies. Why? I feel the world needs thousands of different types of people to fill the thousands of jobs necessary for the worlds survival. Both parents worked hard to change the status quo in their own way. During the time period black people were fighting hard to be treated equally in U.S. society. Mr. Prentice found a good job as a mailman and worked hard to give his son John a college education which was not the norm. He chose to spend his hard earned money on giving his son John the opportunity for a better life - not on fancy cars or clothes. Every parent wants their children to have a happy fulfilling life. I feel that parenting is the most important "job" of a persons lifetime. A 30 year age difference showed the difference in how each man saw himself. John's father felt like a black man and his educated son saw himself as a man. Society today still views an educated person as better. One of my sons graduated from Northern with honors and after working in corporate America and seeing greed and corruption decided to buy a truck and go into business for himself. His x-wife and society were shocked and embarrassed even though he was extremely happy and makes lots of money. We sent a man to the moon but American's are not able to love their neighbors or at lease accept people that deviate from America's norm. Neither parent realized that their children were pioneers in changing cultural attitudes and beliefs. After the father's cultural shock and intense conversation with his son from another generation, he realized it was John and Joanna's decision and a new culture was materializing that he didn't yet understand. In this movie there is a merging of classes. Joanna being raised in a high income family and John in a middle income family where he already experienced social stratification by social mobility and changed his position in the social hierarchy. Being Dr John Prentice gave him prestige and income to travel and live a better more equal life - his parents dream for him. It is interesting that John and Joanna rejected the glitzy life they could have in America by going to Africa to help the poor. Both being morally strong with morally strong parents and seen as deviant by society in America. Grandma005
I think these are all well thought out and relevant sentiments. I especially like that you brought up the story of your son having quit his more respected corporate job to become a trucker instead, and despite being happier and still making a lot of money he was not respected as much. That sentiment really highlights how dependent on cultural lessons we all are in forming our opinions, as opposed to being truly objective about things. That thought makes it easier to understand how someone could think something so drastically different than we do even if it makes no sense to us. Ultimately I hope that concept makes us a little more understanding and tolerant of each other. Poet005
In my honest opinion this scene could be viewed as deviant and a sign of cultural change. For one it is definitely somewhat deviant to talk to your parents in such a way that he did. But there was also a good reason for that. His father was not seeing the way things had been changing. His father was stuck in the time period that he grew up in that he thought a black man and a white woman should never be together. But it is not wrong for one person to love any other in my opinion and the majority of america now. As a country we recently went through something similar to this with the gay rights movement. Both cases had many opposers to the idea. Being gay was seen as being deviant not too long ago. Even many religions are against it. But I think the black rights movement has helped our country look passed these issues and learn to accept that all people do not think and feel the same way. I feel as it is important to not always live in the past. If things didn’t happen and there wasn’t any cultural change in the country we would not be as powerful as we are now and we for sure would not be as diversified. That is the whole reason many immigrants come to the United States, we promise freedom of religion and many rights that other countries do not offer. I think the part where his father talked about all he had to go through to get John where he is today was kind of wrong of him. Sure he went through a lot but that is his own fault. he chose to have a child and therefore that is his right to care and look after his kid. To me it seems like at least in this scene I feel more like this leans towards cultural change. As maybe John’s father grew up always respecting his father and not really telling him how he felt. But times change and John is in a very different situation he had to let his father know how he really felt. One could argue against that still saying John owed his father so much for putting him through school and raising him to be a great young man. But we humans make our own decisions at points in our lives and John shouldn’t have to follow his father’s orders on who he can and cannot marry. That is a man and womans love and it can not be stopped so people should be able to love who ever they please to. That is why I see more cultural change in this whole movie. It still is seen in everyday life today with all the movements that are happening each year. In my opinion these movement are crucial to keep our country moving in the right direction. It gives our citizens more freedom to do as they please and keeps more and more people happy. Gym005
Yes the scene in itself would be viewed as being deviant especially years ago when you couldn't even possibly question your parents how, what,when,where let alone why! Now with all this cultural differences changes that have taken place within several communities; sad to say it's unfortunately is becoming the new normal. As a child who came from a mother who disciplined who was also disciplined and now disciplining my own. I believe that once the government set up rules on practically how people are to raise their kids did more harm then good; cause even now there's less disciplining going on which affects our family, school and world. Leathas005
After watching this scene, deviance was the first thing to come to my mind. This scene shows John and Mr. Preston having an argument over John’s marriage. This is a sign of deviance due to the son looking at his father and talking to him in a way that had to be done. Not all deviance is considered to be bad. During this time period, children respected their parents more than what we do now. But during this scene Mr. Preston is arguing with his son John about marrying a white girl. John sees no issue in doing so, even though during this time period it wasn’t legal in all states to interracially marry. This time period, the United States was going through a cultural lag, where doing this act of marriage was against the law. In this scene, Mr. Preston is against idea because of both the law and how other people would view these two individuals. Even when the law changes, Mr. Preston is afraid that these two will face hardships on what people think of them. But John said him and Joanna are ready for those hardships. I also found this scene to be a bit strange in a way especially looking at John. Through out this whole film, John was trying to get the approval from Joanna’s parents; especially her father’s approval. But during this scene he doesn’t care about the hardships or even the disapproval that they have to face from everyone else. This, to me looks like a sign of dependent deviance, where John is focused so much on his own way of feeling about this whole situation, how he feels about his engagement with his father in this scene.
On the whole factor of Deviance, this whole film was about deviance. Right from the start of this film, we see Joanna and John walking out of the airport hand in hand towards a taxi. During this time period, like I have stated interracial marriage was illegal in many states. On their way to San Francisco, you see them kissing in the back seat of the Taxi, the driver looks back there and just looks both confused and even horrified of what he is seeing. When they get to Joanna’s moms establishment, they see Joanna’s mother’s friend named, Hillary. When Hillary sees John and Joanna are a couple, she immediately starts asking questions. “Is everything okay?” When in to Joanna and John this behavior is okay to them. When the character Tilly, the families maid is introduced she just looks at John and is worried about the outcome of Joanna and his marriage. I would also like to focus this scene where Tilly and John first meet, I will make the argument that this is a sign of deviance to Tilly, she is looking up and seeing John. John also an African American, is a successful doctor. Where Tilly is only a house maid, I’m not saying that there weren’t African American doctors during this time. Cause the first ever African American doctor, James McCune became a doctor in the late 1800’s. But during this time, African Americans weren’t living the fancy lifestyle. So even this scene could be a sign of deviance. TB005
The title say deviance or culture change? I personally think it's both deviance and culture change even back when it wasn't accepted you had people who chose to go against what their culture found to be acceptable in just like in the movie for both individuals they didn't let their up bringing play a factor in their decision to be with one another. Dating someone outside your race will always be frowned upon and of course it's not just with one particular race I have seen where the same issue take place within the African American, Japan, Korean, Egyptian cultures but it's more prominent in the United States among blacks and whites. I personally found the part in the video as to where he tell his father that he view himself as a man not a colored man, which shows how people can limit themselves when they refuse to accept a changing world or even possibly just put limitations on their life worried about the opinions of others. That showed that although his father is the patriarch of the family he still haven't fixed his focus or effort to accept the different and forever changing world. Another point in the movie that I saw was on each side the father's opinion really matter to the wives, to me the wives felt like they needed to agree with their husbands since they were the bread winners for the family, but seeing their kids persistent and love for each other played a great role in the moment each one agreed to accept the couple. And once their mind was set the ladies were able to open their mind to look at the couple just as any other couple. Which then opened the minds of the patriarchs from both sides, and that scenarios there have alot to do with culture change since most businesses are male dominant; not to mention the pay gap women still face to this day. A lot of women in those days didn't work or worked a little to make ends meet but still had to make sure the house was clean kids fed as well as homework completed not to mention have dinner on the stove or table once the husband arrived. So with that being the way most women lived on their husband income most women did as their husband said so to speak to avoid any consequences that may have followed such as abuse mentally, physically, emotionally many women even feared divorce; not knowing how they would provide for themselves let alone their kids. Many husbands in those days knew the advantage they had over their wives since they were the bread winners an although our culture has changed drastically some women still live in those circumstances. I also like the part where he corrected his father telling him that he owed him nothing because he the one who brought him into the world, and that it was his responsibility to do for him the best he could, but not in return of him feeling like he can tell him how to live his life or even make life altering decision. Race has never been a issue in our family but even growing up as a child we learned that the color of the person skin is not that individual story you have to peel back the layers to get to know that person. Which makes me wonder why so many people are dealing with being viewed as deviant or are people really refusing to accept culture change. Leathas005
In this scene Mr. Prentice was trying to talk his son John out of marrying Joey because she is white. After Mr. Prentice tried talking him out of it John told his dad why he felt he was wrong and how Mr. Prentice generation was holding back his generation. I believe that John was being deviant towards his dad but it wasn’t a bad type of deviance. John was being deviant because he didn’t believe that his dad’s views on interracial relationships was correct. John was being deviant because marry Joey was what he wanted. He wasn’t going to let his dad stop him from doing so because of his thoughts. I think John was right in saying that his dad’s generation was holding his generation back. There was still 16 or 17 states that had laws against blacks and whites marrying but obviously that law was changing slowly. Mr. Prentice generation was the ones in the powerful law making seats that had the power to change these laws but were refusing to do so at the time. John knew the laws were going to change and he didn’t want to wait until that day. He wanted to go ahead and get married because he loved Joey. This time period was trying to put social control on interracial marriage. Society was trying to regulate people’s thoughts and behavior on this issue because there was control lag about this subject. You didn’t see interracial couples walking down the street everyday like you do in this generation. The older generation at this time wasn’t exposed to this subject at all while they were kids or young adults so they still believed it was wrong. This disagreement between Mr. Prentice and John can also be viewed as structural functional theory from Emile Durkheim. This disagreement was a necessary part of social organization so that society as whole could change one day. The relationship with rich people would have more influence on society then poor people relationships. The poor people they could just lock them up for marrying out of their race but rich people have the resources to fight the system. Also with Joey’s dad being a liberal government official he had a position of power to help fight the law. Emile Durkheim’s said there needs to be deviance to define and support morality. John was going against the normal cultural values and norms when he was telling Mr. Prentice that he was going to marry Joey and there isn’t anything he can do about it. Her next function is responding to deviance clarifies moral boundaries. The act of interracial marriage was considered deviant because people of the older generation drew a boundary between what was right and wrong in marriage. Another function is responding to deviance brings more people together. People like John and Joey that were fighting against social norms and staying together no matter what it thought would bring more interracial couples together. With more people coming together the more people there would be fight against the laws. And that goes into the last function from Emile which is deviance encourages social change. Once the laws were rewritten and you were free to marry anyone that you desired with time social change would come. Cardinals005.
Is this deviance or culture change? I sit here and try to connect this to how my father and I speak about topics that may have been different during his generation vs how it is during mine. I don't see this as deviant behavior. In the movie I believe John is 37 years old, and I know it might of been different during this time period, but to me being 37 years old seems like you are old enough to make decisions on your own. Mr. Prentice tried to forcefully talk John out of making this decision but I truly believe that adults should be able to do as they please when it comes to doing things that make them happy. I know from a personal standpoint I would be a little disappointed in my father if he tried to tell me what I should or shouldn't be doing with my life at 37 years old. I know it was different during this time when it comes to white dating and marrying african american people, but if people are truly happy, how is up to use to tell them what they should or shouldn't be doing? I believe that you could easily give people feedback on how to handle certain situations but to all out tell them what they're doing is wrong? I think that’s wrong. John spoke his mind to his father, he told him how he really felt, and sometimes that is what you have to do. In reality I believe that kids arguing with parents is considered deviant behavior but in this case I believe this is more of a culture change due to the differences in generations. I like how John handled it. He didn't make a big scene about it. He spoke his mind, his father spoke his mind, and I believe John made his father change his senses on the situation based on what John said to his father. We see kids now a days who engage in arguments with their parents because they disagree with something their parents said or did. When it comes to young kids and teenagers, I would consider that deviant behavior, but as an adult discussing topics that have to do with the differences in generations, that is more of a culture change due to the fact that there are differences in how things work in 20 or 30 year differences. My father and I have discussions over how things are different now vs when he was a kid. There are differences and I believe Parents kind of have to accept it. It was probably harder for parents to accept the differences back during the time period when this movie came out. It was probably hard for parents to accept certain things. What happened in this movie was probably one of them. I understand. So was what happened in this clip deviance of culture change? It was culture change, however it could lean towards deviant behavior in some aspects. PAWW005
It is considered deviant to anyone in that situation whether then or now to flat out tell your parent to "Shut Up". Standing up for himself is a culture change and expressing his decision is not that of deviance but Sidney Poitiers attitude while expressing was deviant. Your elders are still your elders even in this day and age. What we seen from the clip in relevance of culture change mainly had to do with subject matter. People speaking their opinions I do not believe started in the 60s but prior. Take for instant kids that were in a hurry to join in with the Revolutionary War having to prove that they are capable of making adult decisions to convince their fathers to let them join. Discussions as the one in this clip I would consider deviant due to the attitude of the discussion. A discussion with a lighter tone with appropriate wording would not be considered deviant by me. BHL005
I agree with you because if john would of let his father continue to over power him and his decison then he would not have gotten his point across. Yes at that age he wasnt deviant or out of order by the way he spoke to his father. I also believe do to him being able to make his father listen that allowed his father to rethink his distaste on John wanting to marry Joey. After they spoke with both parents I think that made it a cultural change for both sides. They saw that race didnt matter and only the love the to had for eachother did. Because at that age they know what they want and dont want out of life. I also believe they knew it would be a rough rode ahead for them once they married. The power of society only hender those who allow it to either in a negative or positive manner.12mc-005
I can see your reasoning as to why you believe this is an example of cultural change rather than deviance, and I understand why you say that. However, I believe that it is deviance that develops into cultural change as the ideas become more widespread. The definition of deviance is doing something that is looked down upon by a society based on their culture, not necessarily just going against an individual’s parents and their beliefs. Even if John is grown enough to make his own decisions, his actions are still considered deviant because the time period he lives in. Puppies005
The title asks whether if said clip or film is showing us deviance or cultural change. Deviance in sociology is defined as an action or behavior that violates social norms, including a formally enacted rule as well as informal violations of social norms. Whereas cultural change is defined as a modification of a society through innovation, invention, discovery, or contact with other societies. Based off of the definitions the answer is both deviance and cultural change in that what we are viewing in this clip goes against social norms of the time and it also was showing us the start of our society changing through the interaction of 2 different cultures. In this film we were exposed to each races viewed the behavior as deviant and we also seen the struggle of acceptance of such change from both races. In this clip there was deviance of subject matter as we know what the conversation is about due viewing the film that wasn’t expressed in this clip. What I did notice in this clip was the deviance that Sidney Poitier showed through the dialog, meaning the way he talked to his father was deviant. He was right for saying what he had to say but most of society especially in that day and age was brought up to teach your elders with respect. That and raising your voice to your father was also a no go, it was not normal to show defiance towards your parents. Sidney Poitier showed respect by listening to what his father had to say, but once his father was finished all respect went away until the end of his speech. Times change and so does our society both sides could not accept this change and both had to voice their opinions. On one side there was the Caucasian point of view that where the main objections were about how society was going to treat them and their kids if they were to have any. The African-American point of view seemed to be more of moral ethics as the maid viewed Sidney as raising up to high for social standards. His father talked more about himself and what he has done for his family and less emphasis of the issue at hand, I believe his concerns were aimed more towards family values with a fear of how society would treat him. Then there is the side of cultural change as the couple try to persuade the other 2 sides to their opinions ultimately trying to get both fathers to accept the change and gain their approval. Our society from then to now has mostly accepted these changes and is not as controversial as it was when this film aired. For instance I am from small town USA in which I grew up and went to school with kids that were of a mixed family. My roommate when I was in the army was married to a white girl in which they had a son together. My only issue is that race will always be controversial when the media constantly makes a big deal of such issues. In media there is awareness but there is also free advertisement, it is good to make us aware of the issues but when the same issues are reoccurring they might as well say do this and you to will get your 15 minutes of fame for better or for worse. BHL005
This movie touched on so many topics that it was hard to pin point just three. I think that the movie was really on race, deviance and cultural change. In the beginning of the movie this couple is clearly out of place when returning to the women's families place during this time period. The definition of deviance is when someone strays of away from social norms that have been set in place and made as regular behavior. When the couple shows up in San Francisco, they are most definitely breaking the norm of by being an interracial couple when the norm would be to stay with your own race. In today's society that would be the norm to see a couple that is interracial because that is something that grew into regular life. Deviance has taken over the couple when they make it to the women's home and the couple has both neglected to tell both of their parents that they are both dating people of opposite races knowing in that time period that it would be hard to accept. This scene that we preview, the boyfriend of the women spoke his mind to his father, because the father feels as if his son is making a big mistake about dating someone who is Caucasian. I feel like the father is having a hard time dealing with the culture change because he tries to dictate his sons decision all based on the fact of how he raised his son. A lot of times its hard to adjust to something that you haven't personal experienced that is why i feel like the father is so resistant to the idea of his son dating outside of his race. The son than fires back at his father letting him know that it was his responsibility to take care of him and I could personally understand where he was coming from. I feel that it is our parents duty to tell us how they feel, but when they try to control what decisions that we make that is the problem; its his fathers job to worry but i feel like he should have been more understanding instead of trying to throw the lifestyle he provided for him as a youth in his face to get the son to do what he wanted him to do. The father is more worried about how others view his sons relationship instead of supporting his decision, i realize that this cultural change is something new for some people but, that it why in today's society is it so important to be open minded because when you can not grasp the concept of something new coming into a generation, you limit yourself to the changes around and that is how the world survives by evolving. You don't have to like how the world evolves but its better to understand why its evolving just like the young interracial couple is trying to get their parents to understand. You can't help who you love right? MelaninQueen005.
This movie does have so many different topics to talk about I will agree that the obvious one were race, deviance and culture. Yes they were definitely out of place in this time period. The looks that they receive from people told it all. This movie had deviance all in it just the fact of those two being together was very deviant. That was definitely out of the norm for a black man and white woman to be together let alone get married in that time. I will agree that will be a very big culture change and yes that was hard for the black father to accept. Even at the end of the movie John’s father was still not on board with his son marrying a white women when he is clearly a black man. I agree with you all the way John’s father should have be supportive and not so judgemental. I think the father also was so use to having the power in the household, so he was so use to controlling everyone around him. Cupcake005...
This scene definitely represents a great example of deviance but I believe it also portrays cultural change at the same time. In today’s society, being in an interracial relationship is not considered deviant. If anything, it is a normal part of today’s society. I myself am interracial with an African American mom and a Caucasian dad so I also tend to believe that you love who you love and should not be ashamed of it no matter the race, size, shape, etc. John’s father in this scene is very reluctant and against the whole interracial marriage because of how society will look at them and he knows it is a very deviant thing to do. Back then, it was very wrong for a black man and a white women to be together, or even the other way around but you can tell the two characters loved each other to the fullest. Though John understands why his dad believed such, he is against his father’s wishes and when he tells his father “You see yourself as a colored man, I see myself as a man”, it represents a huge culture change. In John’s father’s generation, it was normal for african american’s to see themselves as “colored people” because that’s what society taught them. Since John made a way for himself and society’s opinion has shifted a little since his father’s generation, he just identifies as himself, or a man. Not as a colored man or a black man, just a man which really shows the culture change between the two generations. It also shows that he wouldn’t care what society has to say about the marriage because he is in love and even though he recognizes that society has a problem with their two races, they don’t see it as a major factor. As for another example of deviance in this scene, the way John responds and talks to his father is another example. Saying “shut up” or even his tone can be considered deviant because you shouldn’t talk to your parents like that and that’s in any generation within society. No matter the age, I believe you should respect your parents, even though you might not agree with certain things or topics, it’s a way to respectfully respond. After John’s rant to his father, his tone and attitude changed because he realized that is his father and he does respect him at the end of the day, even though he disagreed with his thoughts, it was considered deviant to not do that in the first place. John was totally right for expressing his thoughts and his feelings to his father but I believe the way he approached it or did it, was a huge example of deviance. -pizza005
I believe the film offered deviance because it showed cultural norms and values. It brought people together that in those days was unacceptable to racial dating and wouldnt have happened. The film also showed and encouraged change in the ones that really didnt see the interracial relationship coming or possible. Labeling theory show how the fathers reacted to the decison of the couple by expressing themselves verbally and non verbal.They displayed ethnocentrism because of the way they were raised do to the times and culture. Even though it was a culture change also it took them a little time to accept it. I think the main reason was because of how they would be treated do to them being of a different race. Yes the gentleman was a doctor with an astonishing background but that didnt change his race and thats all they saw. It was sad to see that the maid had an issue with it as well because she was like family to them yet still felt as if it was wrong and unacceptable because he was black. Maybe her feelings were those of the fathers that they would have it rough down the line. However she was out of line for thinking the way she did.The only good thing is that social change is ongoing and will continue to be open to the things that was once frowned upon.Even though Joey parents wasnt racist it was something totally different when they saw that the guy was black that she planned on marrying. Rascism and social beliefs played a major role in this film. The mother was resonable even though not practical in the beginning. The orgins of society as John mother stated what happens to men when they grow old, blind men only see a problem not wanting to see their own happiness and forget true passion. Race is all they saw and cared about. I like how John didnt put a name in front of what he is the only thing he said was he's a man thats all he see and not the color of his skin. Pluralism played a role also because even though both families were well off their race and ethnicities are distinct. Even in todays world people are against inter racial dating and marriage some even voice their dislike on the matter. So yes there has been some cultural change but it hasn't went away and I doubt that it ever will. John spoke to his father in a matter of fact way without being disrespectful, because to me he was man enough to even ask his and her parents for their permission to marry the young lady. I think the producer did a good job at trying to debunk ethnic sterotypes however in those days it was alot of people against what he was trying to do and did with the film. I don't think times have changed much at all but they tolerate it more so now then they ever would have 30 years ago. Again the way I was raised wasn't to judge people by race, creed or color but how people treat me per say. 12mc-005
Okay now I am only 17 years old and you should see what my generation of kids do compared to this. If you think this is deviant sit at my school for 1 hour and see the behavior there. So, to me this is cultural change. Kids were growing up and trying to break out of their parent’s shadows. I am a prime example. I get called my dad’s name 1oo1 times a day. I’m not even named after the man. Teachers who personally know him call me “little Juan” all day. I hate it. But in this case, he is trying to get out of the shadows of his father saying how much he has done for him to get where he is. Yes, parent’s make a huge commitment and a huge vow when they have a child. Your old way of life changes and depending on your maturity and your love for your child is what is going to make your child the person they are. His father talks about how he has had to work timelessly, day in and day out to give his son the life he lives. I think it’s just a parent thing because my parents do the same thing but unlike him, I could NEVER stand up to my parents like this. They would find this so so offensive and disrespectful because of my age but in his case, he is well above the age to make his own decisions. This can be deviant but in the same sense it isn’t. He is changing the culture in his time. This is giving off a message that you don’t have to live under you parents your whole life. I’m not saying a parent ha to do anything for their child but for a parent to break their back for a child just to throw it in the child’s face because they go against their word and their way of life is ridiculous. You can’t make a person live the way you want to. You can only change you and that is what the movie clip is showing. His father is trying to make his son into the man HE wants him to be but, how can you? How can you make a grown man change his life to comfort you? Everyone’s parents are guilty of this. Parents will say they are going to let you be free but they can’t do it. They can’t let their child be free without keeping that extra key. Parents get to caught up in the things they do for you to make you, you that they have to let it out because they feel they are losing their child. If a child went against its parent’s beliefs and stuck to it without a change in their mind that would kill the parent. Parents can’t believe it sometimes but children have a life of their own. Yes, you may help us get that life but letting us be is what is going to help maintain that life. That is the cultural change the video is showing. Just let your kids live their life and accept the thanks that your child has given to you for all your help. Dolla005
"How can you make a grown man change his life to comfort you?" This question peaked my interest and to switch it by who is attempting to change who. In other words, How can John expect a grown man (his father) to change his view to comfort John's intentions? It's possible, as we see with Joey's father, that ideals can change. However it's never that easy. You make a good point saying parents will always have a hard time letting their children go out on their own. This is probably true in most cases, especially in the 60s during an incredibly immense amount of cultural change. When I was 17 it was deviant to talk back to my parents because I lived in their home, ate food they bought with money they worked timelessly to earn. However now as an adult, I do not hesitate to stand up for myself when my position conflicts with theirs. Though I have learned to be patient with them, it takes time to change. Forcing a full acceptance of any other religion than Catholicism in my parents house might not ever happen because it challenges too much of their way of life. But if I find connections and ways they can relate to other beliefs on a smaller scale, it is easier for them to understand.-jimmys005
This movie reminds me of a lot of things such as West side stories, Romeo and Juliet, and remember the titans. I loves all these movies/stories as a child but I am just now understanding what they all have in common. They all were deviant but only during their own time period. All the characters in these films including “Guess who’s coming for dinner” break the rules of social control. Social control being the attempts by society to regulate people’s decisions, thought, or even behaviors. This control comes from everything you deal with on a day to day basis. Your family, friends, professors, environment. Everything that you are inspired by or even force upon. But I feel like these stories aren’t trying to tell us to rebel everyone and everything however to just do what you want and feel is right. These stories show us what it is like when people face obstacles in their path of succession and overcome them. That’s the base line for every movie/story ever written. There is a problem and someone has to fix it. Sometimes multiple people have to fix it from different backgrounds, ethnics, religion, etc. And for this very reason I do not believe that the main point of this movie was to be deviant. Deviancy is seen as a result of “unsuccessful socialization” however have you ever heard about the one man riot? Probably not because there is strength in numbers. Just like in the movie we watched that couple was not the only couple in the area who was a biracial couple. Making California one of the first states to allow interracial marriage. Deviance encourages social change. Joanna and John were not meaning to be deviant that were just trying to do what they believed was right. In my eyes Joanna and John were still conforming to society’s rules when it comes down to the ways of proposing the idea of marriage to Joanna’s parents. If Joanna’s father said no there would have been no wedding. Then maybe you would have seen the rebellion that you have seen in other films such as Remember the Titans. The labeling theory plays a big part in this film mainly due to the fact the whole movie is about the parent’s reaction to the newly engaged and not about the couple themselves. As we know the labeling theory is all about how others responds to actions that were carried out. Yet this is also what puzzles me due to the fact that let’s say Joanna and john get married and go to Geneva. Geneva is in Switzerland and Switzerland aloud different racial marriage around the same time world war two. Mainly due to the fact all the different types of people whom would go to the Swiss because they remained neutral during the war making it a good place to easily escape prosecution from the Nazis. So American laws or even many American opinions would not matter because they wouldn’t even be in country. I feel like this movie was a lesson not only to treat the your fellow man/woman as an equal but to do what you feel is right no matter what society thinks is right. -bikemaker005
I thought the whole movie was very interesting to watch. The plot was set perfect for that time period and the things were going on. There was a lot of family conflict throughout the movie.There was so much going on in the movie with both deviance and cultural change. The parents were both trying to accept the fact their children are in love with someone of a different race. Back in the day it was unheard of and illegal in some states even. In the scene when John’s dad speaks to him about not marrying Joey. I was so happy and shocked that he told his dad to shut up and yelled at him. But then told him he loved him, very deviant of him to tell his dad to shut up. I thought John was very right to speak up to his dad. John saying “you only see yourself as a colored man, and I see myself as a man” is a very powerful statement. That right there is the cultural change, the newer generation sees themselves differently than the older. John does not care what anyone has to say or think about their relationship. I could tell that in the beginning of the movie John really did not seem to notice the looks he got from the taxi driver about his relationship with Joey and that she was white. I thought it was interesting to listen to John’s mother speak to Joey’s dad because he was so against everything. John’s mother brought light into Joey’s dad’s eyes saying that he wasn't looking at the fact of how happy John and Joey are. How they are a happy couple, willing to do anything for each other. Joey’s dad wasn’t looking at the outside facts just how he felt about the situation and how he didn’t want it to happen all together. But when he stood outside and thought to himself for a few minutes he realized what Mrs. Prentice was truly saying to him, look at the bigger picture. The mothers were very easy to accept the changes going on in the new generations to come. But the fathers were not as accepting, or not accepting them at all. They liked how things were in their day and did not see how times were changing. For example now, it is very common for interracial marriages. This movie is definitely a huge clash of two different generations. The fathers just didn't want them to go through the struggles they would have to face ahead with their marriage and their children later on. But Joey and John did not seem to mind about the challenges and wanted to face them together. John and Joey did not mean to fall in love with each other it just happened. We can't help who we fall in love with it just happens. Our heart tends to lead us in some crazy directions. It just depends if we chose the right direction. elephants005
The most generally obvious chapters to find within this movie are racism and deviance. For me Ageism was fairly clear throughout this movie. In the scene where Joanna asks if she can get anyone any drinks, near the end of the movie, there was such a clear contrast between the couple and their parents. It actually made Joanna come off as a little girl. That difference was brought out by the parents’ “dilemma” of the interracial marriage. It was as if they were facing a “grown up” problem and the kids would not understand the weight of the situation they were going to put themselves into by getting married. This “dilemma” is partially in their heads. The parents are only worried about society’s view of the interracial marriage and it’s because they have yet to catch up with the time. When John was in the study with his father he made very clear how the generational gap between him and his father affected their views of themselves and their actions. John said something along the lines of “You see yourself as a black man, but I see myself as a man.” At one point he even called his father’s generation lousy because they are stuck in their ways and believe that life can’t change “you and your whole lousy generation believes the way it was for you is the way it has got to be, and not until your whole generation has lain down and died will the dead weight of you be off our backs.” John points out that the only reason why there is an issue with the interracial marriage is because of the older generation being closeminded to change. The gender difference was also prevalent within this movie. The men are the only ones who find an issue with the marriage. Other than Joanna, the women know that the marriage won’t be easy and will face harsh judgement. They overlook the challenges for the sake that their babies are truly, happily in love; and if their children are happy then they might as well be happy for them. It isn’t until the very end of the movie that the fathers finally come to acceptance with the interracial marriage. Mrs. Drayton and Mrs. Prentice are very opposite characters. Mrs. Drayton is very strong willed and empowered, which at the time was unusual for a woman. Mrs. Prentice was very quiet, had a very dainty voice that made her seem submissive and lesser. Even within the same gender there are stark contrasts. With the smaller personality that Mrs. Prentice has it was surprising she was able to change the mind of a bull headed, logical man such as Mr. Dayton. There was so much deviance in this movie. The biggest form of deviance was the interracial engagement. However, Mrs. Dayton was a very deviant character. She was a strong, smart woman who owned a gallery. At that time in history women were supposed to be well mannered and quiet. They still had rights, but to no extent as many as women have today. She was most likely a feminist of her time period. Spoopy005
I never thought of using the analogy of ageism, but it does make a lot of sense. It does go along the lines of how the generations are different and how actions have changed among the years. Like your example of how John said his father sees himself as a colored man but John sees himself as a man. The age gap between Mr. Prentice and John really seemed to affect their views and differences on the whole situation. I would agree that older generations don't like to see change, i believe thats why Mr. Prentice was so against John marrying a white woman. PAWW005
In that time period most people would think that situation is deviant. Both of the families had the same shocked look when they had first noticed the situation. When John's family saw her come up his dad had almost fainted. Even for tilly the maid, she was appalled by the fact of an interracial relationship. In that period of time things were starting to change, but it wasn't acceptable by everyone. Joey's dad was still from the period of time when others didn't really have the same rights. That's how he grew up and was raised. He was taught that it shouldn't happen like that and it's not really his fault. That whole generation would think of it as deviant behavior to marry a white woman. I can relate this type of behavior back to my grandpa. When he was younger he was taught and show different things. My grandpa is a bit racist, but again it's not his fault. He was brought up from a different generation and that's how things used to be. Now a days everything is different. There are no problems with interracial differences. When Joey's dad would says they would face problems and they would have to live with them. I'm sure they would have to face some for a couple years. As time went by though the society would start changing and they wouldn't have any problems at all. More than likely they would see a lot more interracial relationships. It was deviant in that time period, but things have changed for the better now. Mustang005
The confrontation between father and son along with the rest of the film is built on many cultural issues present in 1967. This was the first time in the film that John seems to express his own frustration with the older generation's cultural lag. He is seen as composed and polite to Matt Drayton in that same room which is stark contrast to how he acts to his own father, whom holds the same position on the matter and also is from the same generation as Matt Drayton. John seems to accept a place beneath Matt in respect to his potential son-in-law position. When his own father treats John as only his son, he steps up and speaks to his father "man to man" In this scene it seems like he is transcending his status as his father's son to a status that is above what his father believes he is entitled to- a worthy equal. The relationship of a parent to a child is juxtaposed to the relationship of a parent to an adult. John is not a mailman, as was his father. Instead John holds one of the highest acclaimed career statuses and is a symbol of the American Dream. He has accumulated experiences that his father never had the opportunity to achieve. This makes it difficult for Mr. Prentice to relate to John and therefore John is deviant in his father’s perspective. This difference between generations makes the racial issue that much more prominent in this scene. Here it presents us with a totally different point of view. Through out the film, it is the reactions of white upper class America to interracial marriage as the underlying viewpoint. After all, it is important to note that with out John’s impressive resume the Drayton’s would be less likely to approve. Instead John’s status seems to be the sociocultural criteria for the stereotypical white man in 1960s. The Drayton’s are forced to see him by his character, and achievements, not the color of his skin. However race is apart of Mr. Prentice’s self-identity and therefore he expects the same identity for his son. Even more ironic is the depiction of John’s status as both deserving of his father’s pride, and deviant to his father’s ideals. On one had we see Mr. Prentice speak with admiration about his son. On the other hand, it seems like Mr. Prentice views John’s choice of marrying a white woman as a betrayal to the people Mr. Prentice identifies with. The hard work, lack of opportunity and extreme prejudice that previous generations endured surely paved the way to a more progressive America. However, change is not easily accepted. Especially when the oppressor is the same people who were oppressed to begin with. In this scene we see John confronted with aversion with his own racial group. He is very much against the stereotypical African American in 1960s. He stands as an anomaly to the stereotype and further depicts it by not letting it define him. Instead he defines himself.-Jimmys005
I completely agree with your idea that Mr. Prentice could've seen John's marriage to a white woman as a betrayal to his race. Even Tilly felt strongly enough about the situation to warn John not to try and increase his social status by marrying Joanna due to her race. Tilly and Mr. Prentice couldn't see that John was marrying Joanna for love, not status or race or reputation. They both spoke highly of each other's character, but neither of them viewed race as a huge element of their relationship until other people started reacting. How the public saw their relationship was a huge reason why their parents disagreed with the relationship and that speaks a lot about the value we place in other people's opinions. At the end of the day, everyone has to live with their own decisions, so let them do what they want and they'll suffer the consequences if things go wrong. What's the point of interfering if the situation doesn't directly affect you? lasagna005
With every generation, there has been a movement that has caused cultural change, but was considered deviant at the time. When African Americans were marching for equality, white people considered them deviant. When women were marching for the right to vote and for the right to have an abortion, people considered them deviant. When the citizens of Ferguson protested the wrongful death of Mike Brown, people considered them deviant. But all of these events spurred social change. “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner” was released in 1967, just 3 years after segregation was banned in all of the United States. Interracial marriage was also made nationally legal the same year the movie was released. In the movie, John and Joanna are considered deviant because interracial marriage was still not widely accepted by society. It wasn’t normal to marry someone outside of your race and children of interracial marriages were mistreated, often seen as outcasts and called things like “mulatto”, “mutt”, and even “newspaper”. John and Joanna, being in a younger generation than their parents, were more receptive to the ideas of integration, equality, and interracial love because they were raised in an era of people fighting for and preaching about equality. John and Joanna’s parents were more reluctant to accept their uncommon relationship because they had experienced segregation and their parents and grandparents had most likely lived through slavery. Their minds were stuck in the past and they were scared that the other people of their generation would disapprove and make John and Joanna’s lives harder. Joanna’s dad even mentioned that their children would have a tough time growing up because they would be mixed race and that could lead to them having trouble identifying with their races. I don’t think John and Joanna’s parents viewed them as deviant towards the end, but they definitely were scared of what society would think of their interracial marriage. Deviance is necessary in society because without it, we would never make social change. Without people questioning authority and why things are the way they are, we would be an ignorant community all stuck in the past. Even John Locke, renowned political scientist and philosopher, states that deviance is necessary in some cases, like when the government isn’t representing or respecting your interests and beliefs. While it’s considered deviant to overthrow a government to change its operation, that deviation from behavioral expectations allows the people to change their community and make things better. John and Joanna’s deviance in the movie undoubtedly contributed to social change. Just by being in an interracial relationship, the couple opened their parents’ minds to the idea that integration and interracial relationships were okay and that love was love, no matter what color the couple is. The mothers saw the true love from the start and eventually convinced their husbands to see what they saw as well. When people see that at the core, people are all the same despite their race, we all relate to each other better. Once their parents saw themselves in their children’s romance, they could realize how their kids felt and why they would ignore society’s disapproval of their love. If everyone tried to see people as just like themselves, the world would be a much better place. lasagna005
This movie was very interesting. It had many different topics and was hard to pick three. I decided on the one’s that stood out to me the most. They are culture, patriarchy and feminism. The power that society and culture has on Joey’s family even the maid did not affect her needs or wants at all. The power of knowing that being with a black man is not acceptable. Joey was very naive to it all. Joey’s mother was worried about how her husband will react to the matter at hand. Her father was so worried about how he will look to society and his colleagues. It’s said that your culture shapes not only what we do but also what we think and how we act, and feel about certain things. It definitely was a culture shock to see John and Joey together. You could see the look of personal disorientation on everyone’s face when they announced that they were a couple. Both their parents were thinking about how they will be experiencing an unfamiliar way of life when John and Joey said they’re getting married. Such a culture change this will be for both families. This is definitely not the norm for either family. John or Joey wasn’t following the rules or expectation by which their culture guides their behavior. In the movie I began to see the pattern used nearly all over the world. Patriarchy which is the social organization in which males dominate females. When Joey came home with John as her mate everyone in the movie was bothered by the fact that he was a black man, and Joey was a white women. I don’t think Joey’s mother was too worried about the fact that John was black. She was more worried for Joey because she knew her husband will not accept their daughter being with a black man. When Joey’s father came home the maid spoke her feelings of letting him know that she know’s he will not approve of a black man being with Joey and she doesn't either. The father definitely holds the power in this household. All the women in the house were worried about how he was going to take this type of news. Knowing that he is the patriarchy in their home. Chapter thirteen in our sociology books is all about gender stratification. This movie has so many themes from chapter thirteen that has so much meaning behind them. I will say the women’s movement, the feminist movement in this movie was the best parts of it all. I loved how Joey’s mother took a stand against her husband. She stated that she will be on Joey’s side. When he tells them that he will not give them his blessing for her to marry a black man ever. I also loved the part where John’s mother took a stand as well in this movie to tell Joey’s father what true love is and how much they love each other. It was so heartfelt. The woman in this movie took a very big risk. In the 1960’s you were to stand behind your husband no matter what. Back in those days there was definitely a lot of patriarchy. These women were very courageous. Man of the house held all the power back in that time period. Even John’s father was against the marriage of his black son and a white woman. In the 1960’s woman rarely had a say so in anything. This movie stood for many different things to break the grounds for many society guidelines. Cupcake005...
I think the video clip shows a lot more deviance then A culture change. A lot of the older generations have different ways on how they view life and no matter what you say sometimes you can't change it. In the movie it depicted them in the taxi and showed the driver give them a confused and unfavorable look. When they got to the art studio her mother's friend couldn't hide that she didn't approve of them being together by asking if she's seen her mother yet. When they met Tilly she seemed utterly distraught seeing those two together. She would make rude remarks but when her mother walked in she seemed like she was even more surprised than Tilly. As her father got home she was telling her mother about how his wife had passed away eight years ago and he had never found love until now. She failed to mention that to her husband throughout the movie and when he found out she acted like she was dumbfounded by the news. Joe showed deviance by inviting his parents to dinner when he hadn't even told them she was white. When John was talking with his father it showed that his father was do you mean by saying that he did the work for him and that he owed him practically his life. Which to me does not seem fair because you're supposed to work hard for a living to build a life for your family and they shouldn't have to owe you anything but love and support. When he was also talking to his father he said that his feelings could never be fully explained because his father would never get how he felt. Which I think is the meaning of that was to say that because of the culture of his father he would never see why his son did the things he did. He also said that the way the culture is for his father will never change because of the way they think/ behave. John said that his father depicts of him self as a colored man but John just to depicts him self as a man. That shows culture change because the way we view ourselves defines how our culture defines us. When her mother's friend came by the house unannounced she was acting deviant to find out what was going on and being nosy. The mother obviously saw that and sent her on her way and told her to never come back because of how she acted. People may assume that other people find deviance comical but it is not. Towards the end of the movie the more that Joe's father thought about the situation he realized that his wife and him were the same way they were. They didn't care about what people thought they only saw each other and how they felt and the rest of the worlds opinion didn't matter. As long as they have each other they didn't care how deviant people were towards them. Rose005
I agree that there was deviance displayed in the film, but there was a strong cultural rift being shown with all the demonstrations of what was socially unacceptable being challenged by the actions of the younger generation. The older generations do view life differently, but they have seen change themselves. The cultural differences of both generations is always being tested or challenged by the next generation. This will never change because society continues to find ways to adapt to these changes. Watching Tilly react the way she did was confusing but not expected, especially for the time period of the film. We were just beginning to come to terms with desegregation. Interracial marriages were unheard of and illegal in many states. This did not stop people from wanting to be with each other regardless of ethnicity, race, or color. The patriarchal dominance, matriarchal submissiveness, and outright disrespect of the “way things are supposed to be” are all part of a cultural change. Culture has always depicted the father figure as one who accepts challenges and does not bend or submit to something that he believes is wrong, regardless of how he feels. He was taught to be “the man of the family” and that this was the only way to be. Strong cultural upbringing is what made him the “man” he is today. Society has also played a big role in how men see themselves, but society also shows them that there will always be change. Everything that has been stated about this film from all of the blogs shows how societal pressure and cultural teachings have impacted our world. There is always going to be some type of deviance, a lot of cultural change, and possibly, some new lessons learned. Seoulman005
Not to diminish the ever present cultural relevance this movie may or may not have, I believe at the time this film was most relevant it was a clear depiction of racial deviance, with elements today that we can see elude to gender based dominance, and agism causing divides between generations. Initially, though many thematic elements are present, the clearly challenged perspective of the films characters is that of racism, focused around an interracial marriage. While the argument can be made that this was evident of cultural change, I would argue that the resistance of the father figures and acknowledgement of future hardships by the betrothed is definitive proof that, at the time, the behavior was deviant. While the film is progressive for it’s time period, I find that a critical note should be made in just how quickly a movie like this came about. Segregation wasn’t outlawed fully until 1964, with the government cracking down on states who still upheld various means of segregation - finally demanding it was no longer an instance where interpretation by the state would trump that of a federal law (Civil Rights Act (1964)). Now the relevance of that is know that this movie came out not even three whole years later early in 1967. Now, not to diminish the efforts of millions of individuals who were collectively working to change the mentality of a racially divided America, evident by the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. wrote Kernis (2000), one of the most prominent voices heralding the racially based changes happening in America, that would occur eleven short months after the release of this film. While there were additional happenings causing great tension in the United States at the time, I believe it’s fair to say that we as a whole nation were not nearly as progressive as the families portrayed in this film. As such, in my opinion this indicates their behavior, while most assuredly an example of cultural change, was at the time nothing more than a depiction of deviance because it was eye catching, and clearly addressed an important, though stagnant, topic at the time.
Additionally, while intermingled with the keynote of racism, there are distinct characteristics of sexism that, though perhaps considered commonplace in the films time period, we now recognize and can address. Right off the bat the first thing that stuck out to me was that the opinion of the daughter, the woman to be married, mattered less than any other involved in the entire decision making process. Though she made it clear she was prepared to strike out against the societal norms and leave her family behind to marry this black man, her husband prioritized her father’s opinion over that of his future wife’s. In the later half of the film, it would come to light that the critical development of the, “blessing or no blessing,” dilemma with the bride’s father, the bride was off in her room. Truly an underwhelming experience to know that a woman's opinion only mattered once she was well into her adulthood, since both mothers had a hand in swaying the father’s opinions. So as the plot developed, we worked our way up the hierarchy as the movie displayed who in this home, and arguably in the United States, had the most say, The mothers quietly deliberated outside, away from the men sharing their similar opinion. All the while this was happening, the patriarchal heads of the families, shared totally opposite opinions confiding in one another that the entire situation was ludicrous in their eyes. After these two distinctly different conversations took place, opinions disseminated through small talk, and brief meetings of men and women. This all ultimately lead up to the husband to be sharing some rather harsh words with his father, accumulating to he was an adult finding his own way now, and that his father need respect him as he’d never let him down before. It ended there and dinner was served - after the main component in the marriage had made his peace … or not. No, in fact even though the most important male involved in the entire marriage had finally made his peace, the entire situation defaulted to the residing head male, who - spoiler alert, was white and old. Clearly depictive of the nuclear family mentality as Maroto said (2014), brimming with racism, the white head of household had the final say over his daughter, the marriage, and inevitably whether or not the whole situation fails or succeeds. I think this aspect of the film doesn’t didn’t display deviance by any measure circa the 1960’s, nor does it depict cultural change. Perhaps it’s that reason that we’re so reluctant to handle the issues concerned with the sexes even present day, that being our aversion to addressing why women’s opinions are valued less than that of a mans.
Citations
Civil Rights Act of 1964, Pub.L. 88-352, 78 Stat. 241 (1964).
Kernis, Walter. (2010). Martin Luther King Jr Assassination. Retrieved April 05, 2017, from http://www.history.com/topics/black-history/martin-luther-king-jr-assassination
Michelle Maroto, Laura Aylsworth, Assessing the Relationship Between Gender, Household Structure, and Net Worth in the United States, Journal of Family and Economic Issues, 2017
This to me is what you call deviance. It’s called deviance to me because of how he is talking to his father. Today this would also be called deviance based off the communications he is having with his father. Another way this is called deviance because of the interracial relationship they are having. I’m not sure what time is due to not start seeing the beginning of the movie I’m guessing this is the 50’s or 60’s and obviously, we know how that wasn’t acceptable at all to date outside your race. Especially black and whites dating together but as we can see they don’t care what society must say about them dating. This shows when they are walking out the airport holding hands. The way he talked to his father he wanted him to know how he felt and how even though both dads felt that way it wasn’t going to change anything and he was still going to be with her. The couples show a high level of deviance by not giving in to society and their parents by breaking up and calling off the wedding. Today, we are used to seeing different races mixing with each other besides the blac9sk and white you typically think about. Now days you see Asian and Indian, Black, and Hispanic, or you might even see a White and Arabian. However back in that society being open to different races wasn’t something that was common and want not done very often, because everybody stuck to the same routine and followed the same patterns it just wasn’t socially acceptable to do that. However, by them going against social norms and setting their own path there is no telling who may have seen them and decided to follow the same path as them. -kyw005
This scene is a great example of the social deviance that started to become a norm in society. This movie came out in a time of social strife in our country. It really set an example for the standards it was trying to break. The most obvious and general topic the movie addresses is the issue of racism and how it affects our nation. All throughout the movie we see peoples opinion of the young couples proposed marriage tainted by the dark shadow that is racism. Katherine's friend, Hillary, is a perfect example of this. Instead of having a well thought out and formulated opinion on the young couple's marriage, she lets her opinion be completely overshadowed by her apparent racism. A character who is a polar opposite of this is the Monsignor. You can see he has the best intentions for the newlyweds to be. Instead of letting the social norms affect his judgement, he allows himself to push past this bias and formulate an opinion without bias. Racism doesn't only work one way in this movie, though. Even John's father initially had racist ideals when he was first shown the full truth of his son's wife-to-be. We see Tilly, the housemaid, hold certain cultural standards to John, initially believing him to be a no good troublemaker. These racist beliefs exist everywhere in the movie. Another topic the movie showcases is the issue of gender stratification. Throughout the movie we see the struggle of gender equality. We see the mothers of both respective parties of the marriage come to be okay with the marriage and even allow themselves to be happy for their children. Even though they may be fine with it, we see they have a large amount of trouble bringing their husbands to agree with them. The husbands, at first, don't seem to take their wife's opinion seriously, as it may be too tainted with emotion and not logic. Or so says Joanna's father. We see a lot of dismissive behavior towards females in general in this film, even from John himself. He gives himself the final say of whether the marriage should follow through or not, without even consulting Joanna. As you brought up in the end of the class, Joanna's father even gets the final say of whether the marriage passes or not. We also see the idea of faithfulness being brought up in the film. With the mysterious women in the building who likes to dance and maybe even the diner worker, we both see the the men ogle them right next to their partner. Both times the female didn't take action against it and Joanna even playfully pushed it aside. We also see a huge generation gap in this film. I like what the monsignor said regarding this. He called John and Joanna "The next generation". He is able to see what the future holds while the parents of both of these people, and more specifically tr fathers, struggle to see the change the world is about to face. Joanna's father is the biggest show of this. He's still stuck in his time and fears that no matter what his child's marriage wont be accepted by society and in turn may cast a bad image upon his family. We see in the clip provided John tell off his father by saying he is a grown man now, and no longer the child that needs his father to guide him in ever decision in life. He brings up the point that the older generation want us to live they life THEY want us to live, not the life WE want to live. Overall, this film was a great look into social conflict and I actually really enjoyed watching this film. It felt much like 12 angry Men, where people had to get over there biases and accept that what they believe may be wrong. Acer005
According to the Domino Effect, when an action, particularly negative, occurs it will continue to enhance causing similar, or greater, events to happen. This theory addresses the choices and bad just generated by individuals that influences actions. Via Guess Who's Coming to Dinner by Stanley Kramer, the audience is able to see how education (Chapter 20), race and ethnicity (Chapter 14), and social class within the United States (Chapter 11) can influence a chain of reactions. Fortunately these results of these actions have ultimately been broken and put to rest. As a fairly young couple has fell in love they have caused a cultural shock for their loved ones. Of course young love were supported among their family, but was young, interracial love supported? This 1960s film has highlighted several aspects of society that has been viewed as acts of deviance during this time period. Ultimately these evolutionary behaviors have caused social conflicts, as well as the racial. To begin, many have said that knowledge is power, but in many cases it can be the root of evil. This can be seen through this particular film. Education serves as a source of power that can break down negative matter. And guess who's coming to dinner, Joey, the lead female at, falls in love with and African-American male, John. By doing so, Joey's parents were forced to respond. One of their initial responses, Besides their overall shop, was that they rose Joey to see everyone as equals. Joey was raised to not see everyone as black or white, but to see everyone as human, which could have been an essential life lesson for many individuals during this era. By educating Joey to handle racial encounters in this manner Joey's parents have let Joey to become an equal opportunist. Essentially, Joey's parenting style exposure has led her to overcome ignorance, which is seen as an act of deviance. Deviance is seen as the exception of the bunch, and addresses those who do not obey by their society's norms. Which is not so negative after all. In fact these scenarios have led to evolutionary alterations throughout civilization that has ultimately worked out for the best. In fact, this can be related to other films such as the movie hairspray. In this movie, Tracey Turnblad fight for integration among a famous local television network. By doing so, she was seen as a deviant young lady, but she did not care. By challenging her community Tracy stood out; drawing more attention towards her. But she did not want the focus to be on herself in particular. Tracy wanted to highlight the wrongdoing of society by going against their beliefs. As a result, the television network was eventually racially and morally integrated. Also, education is a key factor when it comes to societal ranking. This can be seen via John's character. Despite his father's job as a butcher, John did not let that define him or his capabilities. After time passed, John turned out to be one of the most impactful, influential doctors of his time. Despite his racial background, John was praised and honored worldwide for his marvelous work.
This particular scene of the movie displays obvious behaviors of deviance that will eventually cause a cultural change. In my opinion, this scene was merely the cultural change that bi-racial couples caused as time went on post-segregation, but on a smaller scale. The purpose of that scene was to give everyone a close up look of how deviance creates cultural change. John is stern with his word and it shocked me that he spoke the way he did to his father. Typically, especially in the African American culture, you are to respect your elders regardless of how much discourse you go through with them. Once John was fed up, he snapped on his father, which was deviant from his culture. What shocked me even more was that his father did not respond the way I would expect and old-school African American father to respond. I know from experience that if I were to talk to either of my parents the way John did to his, I would have been physically reprimanded. His father didn’t respond this way; instead, he remained silent. I strongly believe that if Johns father were to talk that way to his father, he most likely would have been beaten, as that’s just the way it is/was. Was John’s father submitting to the cultural change that was initiated by John’s deviance from the culture in which they live in? Looking at the bigger picture, John is notorious for his deviance. At that time, it was ridiculously abnormal to see a black man that was as successful as he was. He is a black man that wants to marry a white woman, and chose to not submit to his traditional culture because he felt the need to tell his father how he really felt. He even says in the scene that his father doesn’t know anything about him; how he feels, where he’s been, etc. I believe that John is the symbol for cultural change in this movie because that is probably the most sentimental concern I hear throughout the entire movie. It shows another obvious difference between his generation and his fathers; in the past, men expressing their need for emotion and sentiment, especially from their father, never happened. Deviance expressed by Joanna is seen in a much more subtle and less abrupt manner. When she is being deviant, it is much harder to tell her no than the man, which shows how gender also affected the cultural changes that occurred within the movie. The parents of both John and Joanna were much more reluctant to tell Joanna they were in the wrong. I believe this is because we are naturally more compliant with women, as women are seen as ‘softer’, so people tend to let up much easier on men than women. Deviance and cultural change are seen throughout this entire movie, with Joanna and John being the culprit for all of it. Puppies005
This is a perfect example of deviance from the old to the new. As time goes on ideas change such as the ideals that the doctor and his father both held. Dr. Prentice sees himself as man and his father sees himself as a black man, this shows change in the cultural shift. The whole scene overall, captured the social codes that existed around race, and how it was broken if you aren’t with your own kind. There was tension between father and son, with the son breaking the social codes. Dr. Prentice deviates also by the way he spoke to his father. In the African American culture that would be deemed as extreme disrespect. What surprised me even more is that is father remained silent. I don’t blame his father yelling at him, it’s probably for a good intention because it was how generations before him were raised. He just wants to protect his son. John shakes him off telling him things have got to change. Even though they don’t agree with each other he still loves his father and he still loves him. All he’s asking for is a change of life. The way he wants to pave his life. Another way Dr. Prentice deviates his that he shows emotion while relaying his feeling to his father. Traditionally in our society, men aren’t supposed expose emotion. Dr. Prentice breaks the norm by doing what he did. Honeytea005
One of the strongest aspects of deviance that stood out the most was from Tilly, the maid. When she stated that John was just a smooth talking smartass ***** trying to rise above his station in life. I saw this movie when I was 12 or 13 and was stunned at the way she felt about how John actually felt about Joanna. These were two “people” who had found something that many people today are still searching for. Growing up just after this time frame, I witnessed much of what was portrayed in the film and believe that this actually helped me to understand a little more as to why so many people had such a hard time with change. The scene with John and Joey in the cab sitting close together, as a couple, and kissing as the cabbie looked on with a look of hatred, and disgust. The manager of the art gallery and how she acted as if they had just committed some terrible crime by being together. This was how much of the U.S. reacted in that time period with outright shock and racism. This was a change from the patriarchal mindset where the man of the house is the final word on anything. We watch as the mothers begin to express their thoughts, knowing that it will mean little to the men, because that was how it was. It was a small step towards acceptance for the new generation and how we were beginning to accept the fact that change was inevitable, even if it was at a snail’s pace. The fact that many states had not “legalized” interracial marriage represents the conflict between the older generation and the newer generation. By raising their daughter, Joanna, to be more open to change and not to be “color” blind, the Drayton’s had given their child an opportunity to view everyone as a human being. The belief that we are dictated by what color we are, who we marry or date, what we believe in, is constantly being taught to us by the very people we look up to and expect to show us the “right” way to behave in society was depicted in this film. John was afraid of how his parents were going to react and did not want to tell them until much later. Joey knew that her parents were going to be upset, but she was willing to stand up to them because of the way they had raised her. She had been taught to look beyond the exterior of a person and accept them for who they were. I was born of mixed parents, with much of the racism coming from my Mother’s side of the family because she was marrying outside her “race”, but she was willing to leave and be with my Father because they saw more about each other. I believe that there was ethnic deviance and racism, profoundly presented in this film, but there was also the statement of cultural change. People were beginning to see that there was more than just black and white in the world. There was an opportunity to make a choice about how we wanted to live as a society of ever changing thoughts, ideas, and beliefs. Times change. They always will. We just need to roll with it and enjoy what comes next. Seoulman005
I cannot resist speaking on deviance after watching this scene. This is a perfect representation of the struggle between older and newer generations. Usually culture lag refers to immaterial aspects of culture failing to keep pace with material aspects of culture such as technology, but sometimes no material culture shift must occur. In this case, there is clearly some culture lag between two immaterial aspects of culture; the law (one’s ability to marry interracially), and the typical families’ acceptance of the act itself. Often, there are practical (regardless of moral footing) reasons for the lag. A conflict theorist would tell you that money is a common variable in resisting social change. Wealthy individuals and groups are likely to do whatever it takes to protect their financial interests, including bribery, lobbying, ad campaigns, etc. However, when no obvious practical motives for resisting change can be found, but the resistance is still present, then it is almost certainly the result of anxiety about contradicting the status quo – also known as deviance. Mr. Prentice claims that his condemnation of the ensuing marriage results from concerns over what his son will endure because of other people’s disapproval, but the other characters (including John and Joanna) are all just as aware of the inevitable hardships, yet they still approve (apart from Tillie who has the same problem as Mr. Prentice). The real reason is the only differentiating factor; unlike the others, he cannot get over his own personal anxiety about how deviant he perceives the engagement to be. This is a perfect example of how subjective and dependent upon culture deviance is.
ReplyDeleteThe second and third things I’d like to talk about are two things that I think not very many people considered while watching the movie, or at the very least didn’t consider too strongly while watching this clip thanks to the very distracting racial issues. Those things are class or income mobility, and family. If you want to categorize them broadly as a sociological concept, you could place this under social and global stratification, race and ethnicity, economics, politics, education, sex, gender, culture and societies, social change or social movements, or several others. The issue of financial status and importance of family fits into virtually all sociological subjects in some way, and financial mobility even deeper still. I’m fascinated by, and am glad that the producers or directors of this film thought to make a big deal about John and his father’s status contrast. John is arguably the most successful person that ever appears on screen in this film, while his father was a postman. The emphasis on this detail in the film is no mistake of course. On the one hand, it highlights the issue of race and deviance by eliminating any other doubts the families might have about John’s eligibility as a husband for Joanna – nobody can argue that he is unfit in any way other than race. On the other hand, I think it is also a progressive statement about how available financial mobility is to all of us who are lucky enough to live in the United States. Based on the dialogue, John’s family clearly had a rough time of it, but even with no more than a postman as a father he was still able to work his way up to being one of the most successful people one could imagine thanks to his father’s sacrifice and his own hard work and responsibility. This is an important message even today for the youth of our nation, especially in larger cities, and doubly so to any prospective fathers and mothers as to the importance of an intact and functional family unit for a child’s development and success later in life. Poet005
I found your blog thoughtful and inspiring. Yes, here in this country a poor interracial boy like Barack Obama can educate himself and become President. I am sure that his mother and fathers parents (even if in Africa) went through the same agonizing fears that the movies characters portrayed. As many of our students are young, please think about the importance of intact and functional family units when you are married and raising families. You will never have a more important job.grandma005
DeleteIf I were sitting in a restaurant and a black man next to me turned and proposed to a white woman, I would have a positive (normal) reaction. However if this would have happened 50 years ago my reaction would have been much different based off of what society has deemed appropriate . The film "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner " is a romantic comedy that takes place in 1967. Joanna, a very ambitious white woman brings home a man from vacation. She introduces this man to her mother, and announces that the two of them are planning to get married soon. Any mother would be happy for her daughter, however her fiancé John fears her mother (and father) will not accept the two. John fears that the pigmentation of his skin will stop him from marrying the woman he loves. John and Joanna would have to face so many negative reactions from the public. People tend to copy the behavior they see. Around the time of 1967 racism was a very strong thing, and those who were not racist we're not allowed to speak up. This is due to a different dynamic in society. Chapter 4 in our book discusses society, society structure (what holds societies together), and what tears it apart. According to Marx, social division is based on class positive. Joey's family is clearly very wealthy, and I feel that John's career really had a lot to do with her parents acceptance. John is a wealthy man who is very successful, however Joey's father had trouble accepting the color of his skin. In chapter 9 we talked about deviance. If I could sum this movie up in one word I think deviant would be appropriate. The two of them made the decision to stand out against opposing views from people such as John's father, her mother's friend, and tilly. o I felt it till he was so angry because she had raised Joey and she personally knew how it felt to be put down. When John's parents met her family they have the same surprised reaction because it was so unheard of f at the time. The behavior was only deviant because no one else was strong enough to stand up. John's father had been use to being treated as a minority to the point where he accepted that label. Toward the end of the movie John really explodes on his father in points of the fact that he refuses to be treated the way that his dad allows people to treat him .We discussed the labeling theory and I think that if any character struggled with their personal label, it was johns father. Chapter 14 covers race and ethnicity. Racism is still prevalent in our world today. Racism creates a social distance between people because of pigmentation. A couple times I heard Joey's father say that his generation didn't accept it but that in a few years a generation might . Many of the characters brought up how their children would have trouble identifying being biracial. I think that this is still a problem today. I definitely see how sex, race, politics were all mentioned in the movie. Another point I would like to bring up is the family dynamic. Both families depend of the men to have a lot of say, where as in today society (like we talked about in class) a lot of families are ran by women, or ran by one person. I'm sure that the rolls could be reversed (white man, black woman) . However compared to 2017, many dynamic were different. Chi005
ReplyDeleteI feel the verbal exchange between two generations from different times is an example of Emile Durkeim's Structural Functional Theory. He felt deviance is a necessary part of social organization. We in the human race were all born with unique qualities and different bodies. Why? I feel the world needs thousands of different types of people to fill the thousands of jobs necessary for the worlds survival. Both parents worked hard to change the status quo in their own way. During the time period black people were fighting hard to be treated equally in U.S. society. Mr. Prentice found a good job as a mailman and worked hard to give his son John a college education which was not the norm. He chose to spend his hard earned money on giving his son John the opportunity for a better life - not on fancy cars or clothes. Every parent wants their children to have a happy fulfilling life. I feel that parenting is the most important "job" of a persons lifetime. A 30 year age difference showed the difference in how each man saw himself. John's father felt like a black man and his educated son saw himself as a man. Society today still views an educated person as better. One of my sons graduated from Northern with honors and after working in corporate America and seeing greed and corruption decided to buy a truck and go into business for himself. His x-wife and society were shocked and embarrassed even though he was extremely happy and makes lots of money. We sent a man to the moon but American's are not able to love their neighbors or at lease accept people that deviate from America's norm. Neither parent realized that their children were pioneers in changing cultural attitudes and beliefs. After the father's cultural shock and intense conversation with his son from another generation, he realized it was John and Joanna's decision and a new culture was materializing that he didn't yet understand. In this movie there is a merging of classes. Joanna being raised in a high income family and John in a middle income family where he already experienced social stratification by social mobility and changed his position in the social hierarchy. Being Dr John Prentice gave him prestige and income to travel and live a better more equal life - his parents dream for him. It is interesting that John and Joanna rejected the glitzy life they could have in America by going to Africa to help the poor. Both being morally strong with morally strong parents and seen as deviant by society in America. Grandma005
ReplyDeleteI think these are all well thought out and relevant sentiments. I especially like that you brought up the story of your son having quit his more respected corporate job to become a trucker instead, and despite being happier and still making a lot of money he was not respected as much. That sentiment really highlights how dependent on cultural lessons we all are in forming our opinions, as opposed to being truly objective about things. That thought makes it easier to understand how someone could think something so drastically different than we do even if it makes no sense to us. Ultimately I hope that concept makes us a little more understanding and tolerant of each other. Poet005
DeleteIn my honest opinion this scene could be viewed as deviant and a sign of cultural change. For one it is definitely somewhat deviant to talk to your parents in such a way that he did. But there was also a good reason for that. His father was not seeing the way things had been changing. His father was stuck in the time period that he grew up in that he thought a black man and a white woman should never be together. But it is not wrong for one person to love any other in my opinion and the majority of america now. As a country we recently went through something similar to this with the gay rights movement. Both cases had many opposers to the idea. Being gay was seen as being deviant not too long ago. Even many religions are against it. But I think the black rights movement has helped our country look passed these issues and learn to accept that all people do not think and feel the same way. I feel as it is important to not always live in the past. If things didn’t happen and there wasn’t any cultural change in the country we would not be as powerful as we are now and we for sure would not be as diversified. That is the whole reason many immigrants come to the United States, we promise freedom of religion and many rights that other countries do not offer. I think the part where his father talked about all he had to go through to get John where he is today was kind of wrong of him. Sure he went through a lot but that is his own fault. he chose to have a child and therefore that is his right to care and look after his kid. To me it seems like at least in this scene I feel more like this leans towards cultural change. As maybe John’s father grew up always respecting his father and not really telling him how he felt. But times change and John is in a very different situation he had to let his father know how he really felt. One could argue against that still saying John owed his father so much for putting him through school and raising him to be a great young man. But we humans make our own decisions at points in our lives and John shouldn’t have to follow his father’s orders on who he can and cannot marry. That is a man and womans love and it can not be stopped so people should be able to love who ever they please to. That is why I see more cultural change in this whole movie. It still is seen in everyday life today with all the movements that are happening each year. In my opinion these movement are crucial to keep our country moving in the right direction. It gives our citizens more freedom to do as they please and keeps more and more people happy. Gym005
ReplyDeleteYes the scene in itself would be viewed as being deviant especially years ago when you couldn't even possibly question your parents how, what,when,where let alone why! Now with all this cultural differences changes that have taken place within several communities; sad to say it's unfortunately is becoming the new normal. As a child who came from a mother who disciplined who was also disciplined and now disciplining my own. I believe that once the government set up rules on practically how people are to raise their kids did more harm then good; cause even now there's less disciplining going on which affects our family, school and world. Leathas005
DeleteAfter watching this scene, deviance was the first thing to come to my mind. This scene shows John and Mr. Preston having an argument over John’s marriage. This is a sign of deviance due to the son looking at his father and talking to him in a way that had to be done. Not all deviance is considered to be bad. During this time period, children respected their parents more than what we do now. But during this scene Mr. Preston is arguing with his son John about marrying a white girl. John sees no issue in doing so, even though during this time period it wasn’t legal in all states to interracially marry. This time period, the United States was going through a cultural lag, where doing this act of marriage was against the law. In this scene, Mr. Preston is against idea because of both the law and how other people would view these two individuals. Even when the law changes, Mr. Preston is afraid that these two will face hardships on what people think of them. But John said him and Joanna are ready for those hardships. I also found this scene to be a bit strange in a way especially looking at John. Through out this whole film, John was trying to get the approval from Joanna’s parents; especially her father’s approval. But during this scene he doesn’t care about the hardships or even the disapproval that they have to face from everyone else. This, to me looks like a sign of dependent deviance, where John is focused so much on his own way of feeling about this whole situation, how he feels about his engagement with his father in this scene.
ReplyDeleteOn the whole factor of Deviance, this whole film was about deviance. Right from the start of this film, we see Joanna and John walking out of the airport hand in hand towards a taxi. During this time period, like I have stated interracial marriage was illegal in many states. On their way to San Francisco, you see them kissing in the back seat of the Taxi, the driver looks back there and just looks both confused and even horrified of what he is seeing. When they get to Joanna’s moms establishment, they see Joanna’s mother’s friend named, Hillary. When Hillary sees John and Joanna are a couple, she immediately starts asking questions. “Is everything okay?” When in to Joanna and John this behavior is okay to them. When the character Tilly, the families maid is introduced she just looks at John and is worried about the outcome of Joanna and his marriage. I would also like to focus this scene where Tilly and John first meet, I will make the argument that this is a sign of deviance to Tilly, she is looking up and seeing John. John also an African American, is a successful doctor. Where Tilly is only a house maid, I’m not saying that there weren’t African American doctors during this time. Cause the first ever African American doctor, James McCune became a doctor in the late 1800’s. But during this time, African Americans weren’t living the fancy lifestyle. So even this scene could be a sign of deviance. TB005
The title say deviance or culture change? I personally think it's both deviance and culture change even back when it wasn't accepted you had people who chose to go against what their culture found to be acceptable in just like in the movie for both individuals they didn't let their up bringing play a factor in their decision to be with one another. Dating someone outside your race will always be frowned upon and of course it's not just with one particular race I have seen where the same issue take place within the African American, Japan, Korean, Egyptian cultures but it's more prominent in the United States among blacks and whites. I personally found the part in the video as to where he tell his father that he view himself as a man not a colored man, which shows how people can limit themselves when they refuse to accept a changing world or even possibly just put limitations on their life worried about the opinions of others. That showed that although his father is the patriarch of the family he still haven't fixed his focus or effort to accept the different and forever changing world. Another point in the movie that I saw was on each side the father's opinion really matter to the wives, to me the wives felt like they needed to agree with their husbands since they were the bread winners for the family, but seeing their kids persistent and love for each other played a great role in the moment each one agreed to accept the couple. And once their mind was set the ladies were able to open their mind to look at the couple just as any other couple. Which then opened the minds of the patriarchs from both sides, and that scenarios there have alot to do with culture change since most businesses are male dominant; not to mention the pay gap women still face to this day. A lot of women in those days didn't work or worked a little to make ends meet but still had to make sure the house was clean kids fed as well as homework completed not to mention have dinner on the stove or table once the husband arrived. So with that being the way most women lived on their husband income most women did as their husband said so to speak to avoid any consequences that may have followed such as abuse mentally, physically, emotionally many women even feared divorce; not knowing how they would provide for themselves let alone their kids. Many husbands in those days knew the advantage they had over their wives since they were the bread winners an although our culture has changed drastically some women still live in those circumstances. I also like the part where he corrected his father telling him that he owed him nothing because he the one who brought him into the world, and that it was his responsibility to do for him the best he could, but not in return of him feeling like he can tell him how to live his life or even make life altering decision. Race has never been a issue in our family but even growing up as a child we learned that the color of the person skin is not that individual story you have to peel back the layers to get to know that person. Which makes me wonder why so many people are dealing with being viewed as deviant or are people really refusing to accept culture change. Leathas005
ReplyDeleteIn this scene Mr. Prentice was trying to talk his son John out of marrying Joey because she is white. After Mr. Prentice tried talking him out of it John told his dad why he felt he was wrong and how Mr. Prentice generation was holding back his generation. I believe that John was being deviant towards his dad but it wasn’t a bad type of deviance. John was being deviant because he didn’t believe that his dad’s views on interracial relationships was correct. John was being deviant because marry Joey was what he wanted. He wasn’t going to let his dad stop him from doing so because of his thoughts. I think John was right in saying that his dad’s generation was holding his generation back. There was still 16 or 17 states that had laws against blacks and whites marrying but obviously that law was changing slowly. Mr. Prentice generation was the ones in the powerful law making seats that had the power to change these laws but were refusing to do so at the time. John knew the laws were going to change and he didn’t want to wait until that day. He wanted to go ahead and get married because he loved Joey. This time period was trying to put social control on interracial marriage. Society was trying to regulate people’s thoughts and behavior on this issue because there was control lag about this subject. You didn’t see interracial couples walking down the street everyday like you do in this generation. The older generation at this time wasn’t exposed to this subject at all while they were kids or young adults so they still believed it was wrong. This disagreement between Mr. Prentice and John can also be viewed as structural functional theory from Emile Durkheim. This disagreement was a necessary part of social organization so that society as whole could change one day. The relationship with rich people would have more influence on society then poor people relationships. The poor people they could just lock them up for marrying out of their race but rich people have the resources to fight the system. Also with Joey’s dad being a liberal government official he had a position of power to help fight the law. Emile Durkheim’s said there needs to be deviance to define and support morality. John was going against the normal cultural values and norms when he was telling Mr. Prentice that he was going to marry Joey and there isn’t anything he can do about it. Her next function is responding to deviance clarifies moral boundaries. The act of interracial marriage was considered deviant because people of the older generation drew a boundary between what was right and wrong in marriage. Another function is responding to deviance brings more people together. People like John and Joey that were fighting against social norms and staying together no matter what it thought would bring more interracial couples together. With more people coming together the more people there would be fight against the laws. And that goes into the last function from Emile which is deviance encourages social change. Once the laws were rewritten and you were free to marry anyone that you desired with time social change would come. Cardinals005.
ReplyDeleteIs this deviance or culture change? I sit here and try to connect this to how my father and I speak about topics that may have been different during his generation vs how it is during mine. I don't see this as deviant behavior. In the movie I believe John is 37 years old, and I know it might of been different during this time period, but to me being 37 years old seems like you are old enough to make decisions on your own. Mr. Prentice tried to forcefully talk John out of making this decision but I truly believe that adults should be able to do as they please when it comes to doing things that make them happy. I know from a personal standpoint I would be a little disappointed in my father if he tried to tell me what I should or shouldn't be doing with my life at 37 years old. I know it was different during this time when it comes to white dating and marrying african american people, but if people are truly happy, how is up to use to tell them what they should or shouldn't be doing? I believe that you could easily give people feedback on how to handle certain situations but to all out tell them what they're doing is wrong? I think that’s wrong. John spoke his mind to his father, he told him how he really felt, and sometimes that is what you have to do. In reality I believe that kids arguing with parents is considered deviant behavior but in this case I believe this is more of a culture change due to the differences in generations. I like how John handled it. He didn't make a big scene about it. He spoke his mind, his father spoke his mind, and I believe John made his father change his senses on the situation based on what John said to his father. We see kids now a days who engage in arguments with their parents because they disagree with something their parents said or did. When it comes to young kids and teenagers, I would consider that deviant behavior, but as an adult discussing topics that have to do with the differences in generations, that is more of a culture change due to the fact that there are differences in how things work in 20 or 30 year differences. My father and I have discussions over how things are different now vs when he was a kid. There are differences and I believe Parents kind of have to accept it. It was probably harder for parents to accept the differences back during the time period when this movie came out. It was probably hard for parents to accept certain things. What happened in this movie was probably one of them. I understand. So was what happened in this clip deviance of culture change? It was culture change, however it could lean towards deviant behavior in some aspects. PAWW005
ReplyDeleteIt is considered deviant to anyone in that situation whether then or now to flat out tell your parent to "Shut Up". Standing up for himself is a culture change and expressing his decision is not that of deviance but Sidney Poitiers attitude while expressing was deviant. Your elders are still your elders even in this day and age. What we seen from the clip in relevance of culture change mainly had to do with subject matter. People speaking their opinions I do not believe started in the 60s but prior. Take for instant kids that were in a hurry to join in with the Revolutionary War having to prove that they are capable of making adult decisions to convince their fathers to let them join. Discussions as the one in this clip I would consider deviant due to the attitude of the discussion. A discussion with a lighter tone with appropriate wording would not be considered deviant by me. BHL005
DeleteI agree with you because if john would of let his father continue to over power him and his decison then he would not have gotten his point across. Yes at that age he wasnt deviant or out of order by the way he spoke to his father. I also believe do to him being able to make his father listen that allowed his father to rethink his distaste on John wanting to marry Joey. After they spoke with both parents I think that made it a cultural change for both sides. They saw that race didnt matter and only the love the to had for eachother did. Because at that age they know what they want and dont want out of life. I also believe they knew it would be a rough rode ahead for them once they married. The power of society only hender those who allow it to either in a negative or positive manner.12mc-005
DeleteI can see your reasoning as to why you believe this is an example of cultural change rather than deviance, and I understand why you say that. However, I believe that it is deviance that develops into cultural change as the ideas become more widespread. The definition of deviance is doing something that is looked down upon by a society based on their culture, not necessarily just going against an individual’s parents and their beliefs. Even if John is grown enough to make his own decisions, his actions are still considered deviant because the time period he lives in. Puppies005
DeleteThe title asks whether if said clip or film is showing us deviance or cultural change. Deviance in sociology is defined as an action or behavior that violates social norms, including a formally enacted rule as well as informal violations of social norms. Whereas cultural change is defined as a modification of a society through innovation, invention, discovery, or contact with other societies. Based off of the definitions the answer is both deviance and cultural change in that what we are viewing in this clip goes against social norms of the time and it also was showing us the start of our society changing through the interaction of 2 different cultures. In this film we were exposed to each races viewed the behavior as deviant and we also seen the struggle of acceptance of such change from both races.
ReplyDeleteIn this clip there was deviance of subject matter as we know what the conversation is about due viewing the film that wasn’t expressed in this clip. What I did notice in this clip was the deviance that Sidney Poitier showed through the dialog, meaning the way he talked to his father was deviant. He was right for saying what he had to say but most of society especially in that day and age was brought up to teach your elders with respect. That and raising your voice to your father was also a no go, it was not normal to show defiance towards your parents. Sidney Poitier showed respect by listening to what his father had to say, but once his father was finished all respect went away until the end of his speech.
Times change and so does our society both sides could not accept this change and both had to voice their opinions. On one side there was the Caucasian point of view that where the main objections were about how society was going to treat them and their kids if they were to have any. The African-American point of view seemed to be more of moral ethics as the maid viewed Sidney as raising up to high for social standards. His father talked more about himself and what he has done for his family and less emphasis of the issue at hand, I believe his concerns were aimed more towards family values with a fear of how society would treat him. Then there is the side of cultural change as the couple try to persuade the other 2 sides to their opinions ultimately trying to get both fathers to accept the change and gain their approval.
Our society from then to now has mostly accepted these changes and is not as controversial as it was when this film aired. For instance I am from small town USA in which I grew up and went to school with kids that were of a mixed family. My roommate when I was in the army was married to a white girl in which they had a son together. My only issue is that race will always be controversial when the media constantly makes a big deal of such issues. In media there is awareness but there is also free advertisement, it is good to make us aware of the issues but when the same issues are reoccurring they might as well say do this and you to will get your 15 minutes of fame for better or for worse. BHL005
This movie touched on so many topics that it was hard to pin point just three. I think that the movie was really on race, deviance and cultural change. In the beginning of the movie this couple is clearly out of place when returning to the women's families place during this time period. The definition of deviance is when someone strays of away from social norms that have been set in place and made as regular behavior. When the couple shows up in San Francisco, they are most definitely breaking the norm of by being an interracial couple when the norm would be to stay with your own race. In today's society that would be the norm to see a couple that is interracial because that is something that grew into regular life. Deviance has taken over the couple when they make it to the women's home and the couple has both neglected to tell both of their parents that they are both dating people of opposite races knowing in that time period that it would be hard to accept. This scene that we preview, the boyfriend of the women spoke his mind to his father, because the father feels as if his son is making a big mistake about dating someone who is Caucasian. I feel like the father is having a hard time dealing with the culture change because he tries to dictate his sons decision all based on the fact of how he raised his son. A lot of times its hard to adjust to something that you haven't personal experienced that is why i feel like the father is so resistant to the idea of his son dating outside of his race. The son than fires back at his father letting him know that it was his responsibility to take care of him and I could personally understand where he was coming from. I feel that it is our parents duty to tell us how they feel, but when they try to control what decisions that we make that is the problem; its his fathers job to worry but i feel like he should have been more understanding instead of trying to throw the lifestyle he provided for him as a youth in his face to get the son to do what he wanted him to do. The father is more worried about how others view his sons relationship instead of supporting his decision, i realize that this cultural change is something new for some people but, that it why in today's society is it so important to be open minded because when you can not grasp the concept of something new coming into a generation, you limit yourself to the changes around and that is how the world survives by evolving. You don't have to like how the world evolves but its better to understand why its evolving just like the young interracial couple is trying to get their parents to understand. You can't help who you love right? MelaninQueen005.
ReplyDeleteThis movie does have so many different topics to talk about I will agree that the obvious one were race, deviance and culture. Yes they were definitely out of place in this time period. The looks that they receive from people told it all. This movie had deviance all in it just the fact of those two being together was very deviant. That was definitely out of the norm for a black man and white woman to be together let alone get married in that time. I will agree that will be a very big culture change and yes that was hard for the black father to accept. Even at the end of the movie John’s father was still not on board with his son marrying a white women when he is clearly a black man. I agree with you all the way John’s father should have be supportive and not so judgemental. I think the father also was so use to having the power in the household, so he was so use to controlling everyone around him. Cupcake005...
DeleteThis scene definitely represents a great example of deviance but I believe it also portrays cultural change at the same time. In today’s society, being in an interracial relationship is not considered deviant. If anything, it is a normal part of today’s society. I myself am interracial with an African American mom and a Caucasian dad so I also tend to believe that you love who you love and should not be ashamed of it no matter the race, size, shape, etc. John’s father in this scene is very reluctant and against the whole interracial marriage because of how society will look at them and he knows it is a very deviant thing to do. Back then, it was very wrong for a black man and a white women to be together, or even the other way around but you can tell the two characters loved each other to the fullest. Though John understands why his dad believed such, he is against his father’s wishes and when he tells his father “You see yourself as a colored man, I see myself as a man”, it represents a huge culture change. In John’s father’s generation, it was normal for african american’s to see themselves as “colored people” because that’s what society taught them. Since John made a way for himself and society’s opinion has shifted a little since his father’s generation, he just identifies as himself, or a man. Not as a colored man or a black man, just a man which really shows the culture change between the two generations. It also shows that he wouldn’t care what society has to say about the marriage because he is in love and even though he recognizes that society has a problem with their two races, they don’t see it as a major factor. As for another example of deviance in this scene, the way John responds and talks to his father is another example. Saying “shut up” or even his tone can be considered deviant because you shouldn’t talk to your parents like that and that’s in any generation within society. No matter the age, I believe you should respect your parents, even though you might not agree with certain things or topics, it’s a way to respectfully respond. After John’s rant to his father, his tone and attitude changed because he realized that is his father and he does respect him at the end of the day, even though he disagreed with his thoughts, it was considered deviant to not do that in the first place. John was totally right for expressing his thoughts and his feelings to his father but I believe the way he approached it or did it, was a huge example of deviance. -pizza005
ReplyDeleteI believe the film offered deviance because it showed cultural norms and values. It brought people together that in those days was unacceptable to racial dating and wouldnt have happened. The film also showed and encouraged change in the ones that really didnt see the interracial relationship coming or possible. Labeling theory show how the fathers reacted to the decison of the couple by expressing themselves verbally and non verbal.They displayed ethnocentrism because of the way they were raised do to the times and culture. Even though it was a culture change also it took them a little time to accept it. I think the main reason was because of how they would be treated do to them being of a different race. Yes the gentleman was a doctor with an astonishing background but that didnt change his race and thats all they saw. It was sad to see that the maid had an issue with it as well because she was like family to them yet still felt as if it was wrong and unacceptable because he was black. Maybe her feelings were those of the fathers that they would have it rough down the line. However she was out of line for thinking the way she did.The only good thing is that social change is ongoing and will continue to be open to the things that was once frowned upon.Even though Joey parents wasnt racist it was something totally different when they saw that the guy was black that she planned on marrying. Rascism and social beliefs played a major role in this film. The mother was resonable even though not practical in the beginning. The orgins of society as John mother stated what happens to men when they grow old, blind men only see a problem not wanting to see their own happiness and forget true passion. Race is all they saw and cared about. I like how John didnt put a name in front of what he is the only thing he said was he's a man thats all he see and not the color of his skin. Pluralism played a role also because even though both families were well off their race and ethnicities are distinct. Even in todays world people are against inter racial dating and marriage some even voice their dislike on the matter. So yes there has been some cultural change but it hasn't went away and I doubt that it ever will. John spoke to his father in a matter of fact way without being disrespectful, because to me he was man enough to even ask his and her parents for their permission to marry the young lady. I think the producer did a good job at trying to debunk ethnic sterotypes however in those days it was alot of people against what he was trying to do and did with the film. I don't think times have changed much at all but they tolerate it more so now then they ever would have 30 years ago. Again the way I was raised wasn't to judge people by race, creed or color but how people treat me per say. 12mc-005
ReplyDeleteOkay now I am only 17 years old and you should see what my generation of kids do compared to this. If you think this is deviant sit at my school for 1 hour and see the behavior there. So, to me this is cultural change. Kids were growing up and trying to break out of their parent’s shadows. I am a prime example. I get called my dad’s name 1oo1 times a day. I’m not even named after the man. Teachers who personally know him call me “little Juan” all day. I hate it. But in this case, he is trying to get out of the shadows of his father saying how much he has done for him to get where he is. Yes, parent’s make a huge commitment and a huge vow when they have a child. Your old way of life changes and depending on your maturity and your love for your child is what is going to make your child the person they are. His father talks about how he has had to work timelessly, day in and day out to give his son the life he lives. I think it’s just a parent thing because my parents do the same thing but unlike him, I could NEVER stand up to my parents like this. They would find this so so offensive and disrespectful because of my age but in his case, he is well above the age to make his own decisions. This can be deviant but in the same sense it isn’t. He is changing the culture in his time. This is giving off a message that you don’t have to live under you parents your whole life. I’m not saying a parent ha to do anything for their child but for a parent to break their back for a child just to throw it in the child’s face because they go against their word and their way of life is ridiculous. You can’t make a person live the way you want to. You can only change you and that is what the movie clip is showing. His father is trying to make his son into the man HE wants him to be but, how can you? How can you make a grown man change his life to comfort you? Everyone’s parents are guilty of this. Parents will say they are going to let you be free but they can’t do it. They can’t let their child be free without keeping that extra key. Parents get to caught up in the things they do for you to make you, you that they have to let it out because they feel they are losing their child. If a child went against its parent’s beliefs and stuck to it without a change in their mind that would kill the parent. Parents can’t believe it sometimes but children have a life of their own. Yes, you may help us get that life but letting us be is what is going to help maintain that life. That is the cultural change the video is showing. Just let your kids live their life and accept the thanks that your child has given to you for all your help.
ReplyDeleteDolla005
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Delete"How can you make a grown man change his life to comfort you?" This question peaked my interest and to switch it by who is attempting to change who. In other words, How can John expect a grown man (his father) to change his view to comfort John's intentions? It's possible, as we see with Joey's father, that ideals can change. However it's never that easy. You make a good point saying parents will always have a hard time letting their children go out on their own. This is probably true in most cases, especially in the 60s during an incredibly immense amount of cultural change. When I was 17 it was deviant to talk back to my parents because I lived in their home, ate food they bought with money they worked timelessly to earn. However now as an adult, I do not hesitate to stand up for myself when my position conflicts with theirs. Though I have learned to be patient with them, it takes time to change. Forcing a full acceptance of any other religion than Catholicism in my parents house might not ever happen because it challenges too much of their way of life. But if I find connections and ways they can relate to other beliefs on a smaller scale, it is easier for them to understand.-jimmys005
DeleteThis movie reminds me of a lot of things such as West side stories, Romeo and Juliet, and remember the titans. I loves all these movies/stories as a child but I am just now understanding what they all have in common. They all were deviant but only during their own time period. All the characters in these films including “Guess who’s coming for dinner” break the rules of social control. Social control being the attempts by society to regulate people’s decisions, thought, or even behaviors. This control comes from everything you deal with on a day to day basis. Your family, friends, professors, environment. Everything that you are inspired by or even force upon. But I feel like these stories aren’t trying to tell us to rebel everyone and everything however to just do what you want and feel is right. These stories show us what it is like when people face obstacles in their path of succession and overcome them. That’s the base line for every movie/story ever written. There is a problem and someone has to fix it. Sometimes multiple people have to fix it from different backgrounds, ethnics, religion, etc. And for this very reason I do not believe that the main point of this movie was to be deviant.
ReplyDeleteDeviancy is seen as a result of “unsuccessful socialization” however have you ever heard about the one man riot? Probably not because there is strength in numbers. Just like in the movie we watched that couple was not the only couple in the area who was a biracial couple. Making California one of the first states to allow interracial marriage. Deviance encourages social change. Joanna and John were not meaning to be deviant that were just trying to do what they believed was right. In my eyes Joanna and John were still conforming to society’s rules when it comes down to the ways of proposing the idea of marriage to Joanna’s parents. If Joanna’s father said no there would have been no wedding. Then maybe you would have seen the rebellion that you have seen in other films such as Remember the Titans.
The labeling theory plays a big part in this film mainly due to the fact the whole movie is about the parent’s reaction to the newly engaged and not about the couple themselves. As we know the labeling theory is all about how others responds to actions that were carried out. Yet this is also what puzzles me due to the fact that let’s say Joanna and john get married and go to Geneva. Geneva is in Switzerland and Switzerland aloud different racial marriage around the same time world war two. Mainly due to the fact all the different types of people whom would go to the Swiss because they remained neutral during the war making it a good place to easily escape prosecution from the Nazis. So American laws or even many American opinions would not matter because they wouldn’t even be in country. I feel like this movie was a lesson not only to treat the your fellow man/woman as an equal but to do what you feel is right no matter what society thinks is right.
-bikemaker005
I thought the whole movie was very interesting to watch. The plot was set perfect for that time period and the things were going on. There was a lot of family conflict throughout the movie.There was so much going on in the movie with both deviance and cultural change. The parents were both trying to accept the fact their children are in love with someone of a different race. Back in the day it was unheard of and illegal in some states even. In the scene when John’s dad speaks to him about not marrying Joey. I was so happy and shocked that he told his dad to shut up and yelled at him. But then told him he loved him, very deviant of him to tell his dad to shut up. I thought John was very right to speak up to his dad. John saying “you only see yourself as a colored man, and I see myself as a man” is a very powerful statement. That right there is the cultural change, the newer generation sees themselves differently than the older. John does not care what anyone has to say or think about their relationship. I could tell that in the beginning of the movie John really did not seem to notice the looks he got from the taxi driver about his relationship with Joey and that she was white. I thought it was interesting to listen to John’s mother speak to Joey’s dad because he was so against everything. John’s mother brought light into Joey’s dad’s eyes saying that he wasn't looking at the fact of how happy John and Joey are. How they are a happy couple, willing to do anything for each other. Joey’s dad wasn’t looking at the outside facts just how he felt about the situation and how he didn’t want it to happen all together. But when he stood outside and thought to himself for a few minutes he realized what Mrs. Prentice was truly saying to him, look at the bigger picture. The mothers were very easy to accept the changes going on in the new generations to come. But the fathers were not as accepting, or not accepting them at all. They liked how things were in their day and did not see how times were changing. For example now, it is very common for interracial marriages. This movie is definitely a huge clash of two different generations. The fathers just didn't want them to go through the struggles they would have to face ahead with their marriage and their children later on. But Joey and John did not seem to mind about the challenges and wanted to face them together. John and Joey did not mean to fall in love with each other it just happened. We can't help who we fall in love with it just happens. Our heart tends to lead us in some crazy directions. It just depends if we chose the right direction. elephants005
ReplyDeleteThe most generally obvious chapters to find within this movie are racism and deviance. For me Ageism was fairly clear throughout this movie. In the scene where Joanna asks if she can get anyone any drinks, near the end of the movie, there was such a clear contrast between the couple and their parents. It actually made Joanna come off as a little girl. That difference was brought out by the parents’ “dilemma” of the interracial marriage. It was as if they were facing a “grown up” problem and the kids would not understand the weight of the situation they were going to put themselves into by getting married. This “dilemma” is partially in their heads. The parents are only worried about society’s view of the interracial marriage and it’s because they have yet to catch up with the time. When John was in the study with his father he made very clear how the generational gap between him and his father affected their views of themselves and their actions. John said something along the lines of “You see yourself as a black man, but I see myself as a man.” At one point he even called his father’s generation lousy because they are stuck in their ways and believe that life can’t change “you and your whole lousy generation believes the way it was for you is the way it has got to be, and not until your whole generation has lain down and died will the dead weight of you be off our backs.” John points out that the only reason why there is an issue with the interracial marriage is because of the older generation being closeminded to change. The gender difference was also prevalent within this movie. The men are the only ones who find an issue with the marriage. Other than Joanna, the women know that the marriage won’t be easy and will face harsh judgement. They overlook the challenges for the sake that their babies are truly, happily in love; and if their children are happy then they might as well be happy for them. It isn’t until the very end of the movie that the fathers finally come to acceptance with the interracial marriage. Mrs. Drayton and Mrs. Prentice are very opposite characters. Mrs. Drayton is very strong willed and empowered, which at the time was unusual for a woman. Mrs. Prentice was very quiet, had a very dainty voice that made her seem submissive and lesser. Even within the same gender there are stark contrasts. With the smaller personality that Mrs. Prentice has it was surprising she was able to change the mind of a bull headed, logical man such as Mr. Dayton. There was so much deviance in this movie. The biggest form of deviance was the interracial engagement. However, Mrs. Dayton was a very deviant character. She was a strong, smart woman who owned a gallery. At that time in history women were supposed to be well mannered and quiet. They still had rights, but to no extent as many as women have today. She was most likely a feminist of her time period. Spoopy005
ReplyDeleteI never thought of using the analogy of ageism, but it does make a lot of sense. It does go along the lines of how the generations are different and how actions have changed among the years. Like your example of how John said his father sees himself as a colored man but John sees himself as a man. The age gap between Mr. Prentice and John really seemed to affect their views and differences on the whole situation. I would agree that older generations don't like to see change, i believe thats why Mr. Prentice was so against John marrying a white woman. PAWW005
DeleteIn that time period most people would think that situation is deviant. Both of the families had the same shocked look when they had first noticed the situation. When John's family saw her come up his dad had almost fainted. Even for tilly the maid, she was appalled by the fact of an interracial relationship. In that period of time things were starting to change, but it wasn't acceptable by everyone. Joey's dad was still from the period of time when others didn't really have the same rights. That's how he grew up and was raised. He was taught that it shouldn't happen like that and it's not really his fault. That whole generation would think of it as deviant behavior to marry a white woman. I can relate this type of behavior back to my grandpa. When he was younger he was taught and show different things. My grandpa is a bit racist, but again it's not his fault. He was brought up from a different generation and that's how things used to be. Now a days everything is different. There are no problems with interracial differences. When Joey's dad would says they would face problems and they would have to live with them. I'm sure they would have to face some for a couple years. As time went by though the society would start changing and they wouldn't have any problems at all. More than likely they would see a lot more interracial relationships. It was deviant in that time period, but things have changed for the better now. Mustang005
ReplyDeleteThe confrontation between father and son along with the rest of the film is built on many cultural issues present in 1967. This was the first time in the film that John seems to express his own frustration with the older generation's cultural lag. He is seen as composed and polite to Matt Drayton in that same room which is stark contrast to how he acts to his own father, whom holds the same position on the matter and also is from the same generation as Matt Drayton. John seems to accept a place beneath Matt in respect to his potential son-in-law position. When his own father treats John as only his son, he steps up and speaks to his father "man to man" In this scene it seems like he is transcending his status as his father's son to a status that is above what his father believes he is entitled to- a worthy equal. The relationship of a parent to a child is juxtaposed to the relationship of a parent to an adult. John is not a mailman, as was his father. Instead John holds one of the highest acclaimed career statuses and is a symbol of the American Dream. He has accumulated experiences that his father never had the opportunity to achieve. This makes it difficult for Mr. Prentice to relate to John and therefore John is deviant in his father’s perspective.
ReplyDeleteThis difference between generations makes the racial issue that much more prominent in this scene. Here it presents us with a totally different point of view. Through out the film, it is the reactions of white upper class America to interracial marriage as the underlying viewpoint. After all, it is important to note that with out John’s impressive resume the Drayton’s would be less likely to approve. Instead John’s status seems to be the sociocultural criteria for the stereotypical white man in 1960s. The Drayton’s are forced to see him by his character, and achievements, not the color of his skin. However race is apart of Mr. Prentice’s self-identity and therefore he expects the same identity for his son. Even more ironic is the depiction of John’s status as both deserving of his father’s pride, and deviant to his father’s ideals. On one had we see Mr. Prentice speak with admiration about his son. On the other hand, it seems like Mr. Prentice views John’s choice of marrying a white woman as a betrayal to the people Mr. Prentice identifies with.
The hard work, lack of opportunity and extreme prejudice that previous generations endured surely paved the way to a more progressive America. However, change is not easily accepted. Especially when the oppressor is the same people who were oppressed to begin with. In this scene we see John confronted with aversion with his own racial group. He is very much against the stereotypical African American in 1960s. He stands as an anomaly to the stereotype and further depicts it by not letting it define him. Instead he defines himself.-Jimmys005
I completely agree with your idea that Mr. Prentice could've seen John's marriage to a white woman as a betrayal to his race. Even Tilly felt strongly enough about the situation to warn John not to try and increase his social status by marrying Joanna due to her race. Tilly and Mr. Prentice couldn't see that John was marrying Joanna for love, not status or race or reputation. They both spoke highly of each other's character, but neither of them viewed race as a huge element of their relationship until other people started reacting. How the public saw their relationship was a huge reason why their parents disagreed with the relationship and that speaks a lot about the value we place in other people's opinions. At the end of the day, everyone has to live with their own decisions, so let them do what they want and they'll suffer the consequences if things go wrong. What's the point of interfering if the situation doesn't directly affect you? lasagna005
DeleteWith every generation, there has been a movement that has caused cultural change, but was considered deviant at the time. When African Americans were marching for equality, white people considered them deviant. When women were marching for the right to vote and for the right to have an abortion, people considered them deviant. When the citizens of Ferguson protested the wrongful death of Mike Brown, people considered them deviant. But all of these events spurred social change.
ReplyDelete“Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner” was released in 1967, just 3 years after segregation was banned in all of the United States. Interracial marriage was also made nationally legal the same year the movie was released. In the movie, John and Joanna are considered deviant because interracial marriage was still not widely accepted by society. It wasn’t normal to marry someone outside of your race and children of interracial marriages were mistreated, often seen as outcasts and called things like “mulatto”, “mutt”, and even “newspaper”. John and Joanna, being in a younger generation than their parents, were more receptive to the ideas of integration, equality, and interracial love because they were raised in an era of people fighting for and preaching about equality. John and Joanna’s parents were more reluctant to accept their uncommon relationship because they had experienced segregation and their parents and grandparents had most likely lived through slavery. Their minds were stuck in the past and they were scared that the other people of their generation would disapprove and make John and Joanna’s lives harder. Joanna’s dad even mentioned that their children would have a tough time growing up because they would be mixed race and that could lead to them having trouble identifying with their races. I don’t think John and Joanna’s parents viewed them as deviant towards the end, but they definitely were scared of what society would think of their interracial marriage.
Deviance is necessary in society because without it, we would never make social change. Without people questioning authority and why things are the way they are, we would be an ignorant community all stuck in the past. Even John Locke, renowned political scientist and philosopher, states that deviance is necessary in some cases, like when the government isn’t representing or respecting your interests and beliefs. While it’s considered deviant to overthrow a government to change its operation, that deviation from behavioral expectations allows the people to change their community and make things better.
John and Joanna’s deviance in the movie undoubtedly contributed to social change. Just by being in an interracial relationship, the couple opened their parents’ minds to the idea that integration and interracial relationships were okay and that love was love, no matter what color the couple is. The mothers saw the true love from the start and eventually convinced their husbands to see what they saw as well. When people see that at the core, people are all the same despite their race, we all relate to each other better. Once their parents saw themselves in their children’s romance, they could realize how their kids felt and why they would ignore society’s disapproval of their love. If everyone tried to see people as just like themselves, the world would be a much better place. lasagna005
This movie was very interesting. It had many different topics and was hard to pick three. I decided on the one’s that stood out to me the most. They are culture, patriarchy and feminism. The power that society and culture has on Joey’s family even the maid did not affect her needs or wants at all. The power of knowing that being with a black man is not acceptable. Joey was very naive to it all. Joey’s mother was worried about how her husband will react to the matter at hand. Her father was so worried about how he will look to society and his colleagues. It’s said that your culture shapes not only what we do but also what we think and how we act, and feel about certain things. It definitely was a culture shock to see John and Joey together. You could see the look of personal disorientation on everyone’s face when they announced that they were a couple. Both their parents were thinking about how they will be experiencing an unfamiliar way of life when John and Joey said they’re getting married. Such a culture change this will be for both families. This is definitely not the norm for either family. John or Joey wasn’t following the rules or expectation by which their culture guides their behavior.
ReplyDeleteIn the movie I began to see the pattern used nearly all over the world. Patriarchy which is the social organization in which males dominate females. When Joey came home with John as her mate everyone in the movie was bothered by the fact that he was a black man, and Joey was a white women. I don’t think Joey’s mother was too worried about the fact that John was black. She was more worried for Joey because she knew her husband will not accept their daughter being with a black man. When Joey’s father came home the maid spoke her feelings of letting him know that she know’s he will not approve of a black man being with Joey and she doesn't either. The father definitely holds the power in this household. All the women in the house were worried about how he was going to take this type of news. Knowing that he is the patriarchy in their home. Chapter thirteen in our sociology books is all about gender stratification. This movie has so many themes from chapter thirteen that has so much meaning behind them.
I will say the women’s movement, the feminist movement in this movie was the best parts of it all. I loved how Joey’s mother took a stand against her husband. She stated that she will be on Joey’s side. When he tells them that he will not give them his blessing for her to marry a black man ever. I also loved the part where John’s mother took a stand as well in this movie to tell Joey’s father what true love is and how much they love each other. It was so heartfelt. The woman in this movie took a very big risk. In the 1960’s you were to stand behind your husband no matter what. Back in those days there was definitely a lot of patriarchy. These women were very courageous. Man of the house held all the power back in that time period. Even John’s father was against the marriage of his black son and a white woman. In the 1960’s woman rarely had a say so in anything. This movie stood for many different things to break the grounds for many society guidelines. Cupcake005...
I think the video clip shows a lot more deviance then A culture change. A lot of the older generations have different ways on how they view life and no matter what you say sometimes you can't change it. In the movie it depicted them in the taxi and showed the driver give them a confused and unfavorable look. When they got to the art studio her mother's friend couldn't hide that she didn't approve of them being together by asking if she's seen her mother yet. When they met Tilly she seemed utterly distraught seeing those two together. She would make rude remarks but when her mother walked in she seemed like she was even more surprised than Tilly. As her father got home she was telling her mother about how his wife had passed away eight years ago and he had never found love until now. She failed to mention that to her husband throughout the movie and when he found out she acted like she was dumbfounded by the news. Joe showed deviance by inviting his parents to dinner when he hadn't even told them she was white. When John was talking with his father it showed that his father was do you mean by saying that he did the work for him and that he owed him practically his life. Which to me does not seem fair because you're supposed to work hard for a living to build a life for your family and they shouldn't have to owe you anything but love and support. When he was also talking to his father he said that his feelings could never be fully explained because his father would never get how he felt. Which I think is the meaning of that was to say that because of the culture of his father he would never see why his son did the things he did. He also said that the way the culture is for his father will never change because of the way they think/ behave. John said that his father depicts of him self as a colored man but John just to depicts him self as a man. That shows culture change because the way we view ourselves defines how our culture defines us. When her mother's friend came by the house unannounced she was acting deviant to find out what was going on and being nosy. The mother obviously saw that and sent her on her way and told her to never come back because of how she acted. People may assume that other people find deviance comical but it is not. Towards the end of the movie the more that Joe's father thought about the situation he realized that his wife and him were the same way they were. They didn't care about what people thought they only saw each other and how they felt and the rest of the worlds opinion didn't matter. As long as they have each other they didn't care how deviant people were towards them. Rose005
ReplyDeleteI agree that there was deviance displayed in the film, but there was a strong cultural rift being shown with all the demonstrations of what was socially unacceptable being challenged by the actions of the younger generation. The older generations do view life differently, but they have seen change themselves. The cultural differences of both generations is always being tested or challenged by the next generation. This will never change because society continues to find ways to adapt to these changes. Watching Tilly react the way she did was confusing but not expected, especially for the time period of the film. We were just beginning to come to terms with desegregation. Interracial marriages were unheard of and illegal in many states. This did not stop people from wanting to be with each other regardless of ethnicity, race, or color. The patriarchal dominance, matriarchal submissiveness, and outright disrespect of the “way things are supposed to be” are all part of a cultural change. Culture has always depicted the father figure as one who accepts challenges and does not bend or submit to something that he believes is wrong, regardless of how he feels. He was taught to be “the man of the family” and that this was the only way to be. Strong cultural upbringing is what made him the “man” he is today. Society has also played a big role in how men see themselves, but society also shows them that there will always be change. Everything that has been stated about this film from all of the blogs shows how societal pressure and cultural teachings have impacted our world. There is always going to be some type of deviance, a lot of cultural change, and possibly, some new lessons learned. Seoulman005
DeleteNot to diminish the ever present cultural relevance this movie may or may not have, I believe at the time this film was most relevant it was a clear depiction of racial deviance, with elements today that we can see elude to gender based dominance, and agism causing divides between generations.
ReplyDeleteInitially, though many thematic elements are present, the clearly challenged perspective of the films characters is that of racism, focused around an interracial marriage. While the argument can be made that this was evident of cultural change, I would argue that the resistance of the father figures and acknowledgement of future hardships by the betrothed is definitive proof that, at the time, the behavior was deviant. While the film is progressive for it’s time period, I find that a critical note should be made in just how quickly a movie like this came about. Segregation wasn’t outlawed fully until 1964, with the government cracking down on states who still upheld various means of segregation - finally demanding it was no longer an instance where interpretation by the state would trump that of a federal law (Civil Rights Act (1964)). Now the relevance of that is know that this movie came out not even three whole years later early in 1967. Now, not to diminish the efforts of millions of individuals who were collectively working to change the mentality of a racially divided America, evident by the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. wrote Kernis (2000), one of the most prominent voices heralding the racially based changes happening in America, that would occur eleven short months after the release of this film. While there were additional happenings causing great tension in the United States at the time, I believe it’s fair to say that we as a whole nation were not nearly as progressive as the families portrayed in this film. As such, in my opinion this indicates their behavior, while most assuredly an example of cultural change, was at the time nothing more than a depiction of deviance because it was eye catching, and clearly addressed an important, though stagnant, topic at the time.
Part 1 - 35G005
Additionally, while intermingled with the keynote of racism, there are distinct characteristics of sexism that, though perhaps considered commonplace in the films time period, we now recognize and can address. Right off the bat the first thing that stuck out to me was that the opinion of the daughter, the woman to be married, mattered less than any other involved in the entire decision making process. Though she made it clear she was prepared to strike out against the societal norms and leave her family behind to marry this black man, her husband prioritized her father’s opinion over that of his future wife’s. In the later half of the film, it would come to light that the critical development of the, “blessing or no blessing,” dilemma with the bride’s father, the bride was off in her room. Truly an underwhelming experience to know that a woman's opinion only mattered once she was well into her adulthood, since both mothers had a hand in swaying the father’s opinions. So as the plot developed, we worked our way up the hierarchy as the movie displayed who in this home, and arguably in the United States, had the most say, The mothers quietly deliberated outside, away from the men sharing their similar opinion. All the while this was happening, the patriarchal heads of the families, shared totally opposite opinions confiding in one another that the entire situation was ludicrous in their eyes. After these two distinctly different conversations took place, opinions disseminated through small talk, and brief meetings of men and women. This all ultimately lead up to the husband to be sharing some rather harsh words with his father, accumulating to he was an adult finding his own way now, and that his father need respect him as he’d never let him down before. It ended there and dinner was served - after the main component in the marriage had made his peace … or not. No, in fact even though the most important male involved in the entire marriage had finally made his peace, the entire situation defaulted to the residing head male, who - spoiler alert, was white and old. Clearly depictive of the nuclear family mentality as Maroto said (2014), brimming with racism, the white head of household had the final say over his daughter, the marriage, and inevitably whether or not the whole situation fails or succeeds. I think this aspect of the film doesn’t didn’t display deviance by any measure circa the 1960’s, nor does it depict cultural change. Perhaps it’s that reason that we’re so reluctant to handle the issues concerned with the sexes even present day, that being our aversion to addressing why women’s opinions are valued less than that of a mans.
DeleteCitations
Civil Rights Act of 1964, Pub.L. 88-352, 78 Stat. 241 (1964).
Kernis, Walter. (2010). Martin Luther King Jr Assassination. Retrieved April 05, 2017, from http://www.history.com/topics/black-history/martin-luther-king-jr-assassination
Michelle Maroto, Laura Aylsworth, Assessing the Relationship Between Gender, Household Structure, and Net Worth in the United States, Journal of Family and Economic Issues, 2017
Part 2 - 35G005
This to me is what you call deviance. It’s called deviance to me because of how he is talking to his father. Today this would also be called deviance based off the communications he is having with his father. Another way this is called deviance because of the interracial relationship they are having. I’m not sure what time is due to not start seeing the beginning of the movie I’m guessing this is the 50’s or 60’s and obviously, we know how that wasn’t acceptable at all to date outside your race. Especially black and whites dating together but as we can see they don’t care what society must say about them dating. This shows when they are walking out the airport holding hands. The way he talked to his father he wanted him to know how he felt and how even though both dads felt that way it wasn’t going to change anything and he was still going to be with her. The couples show a high level of deviance by not giving in to society and their parents by breaking up and calling off the wedding. Today, we are used to seeing different races mixing with each other besides the blac9sk and white you typically think about. Now days you see Asian and Indian, Black, and Hispanic, or you might even see a White and Arabian. However back in that society being open to different races wasn’t something that was common and want not done very often, because everybody stuck to the same routine and followed the same patterns it just wasn’t socially acceptable to do that. However, by them going against social norms and setting their own path there is no telling who may have seen them and decided to follow the same path as them.
ReplyDelete-kyw005
This scene is a great example of the social deviance that started to become a norm in society. This movie came out in a time of social strife in our country. It really set an example for the standards it was trying to break. The most obvious and general topic the movie addresses is the issue of racism and how it affects our nation. All throughout the movie we see peoples opinion of the young couples proposed marriage tainted by the dark shadow that is racism. Katherine's friend, Hillary, is a perfect example of this. Instead of having a well thought out and formulated opinion on the young couple's marriage, she lets her opinion be completely overshadowed by her apparent racism. A character who is a polar opposite of this is the Monsignor. You can see he has the best intentions for the newlyweds to be. Instead of letting the social norms affect his judgement, he allows himself to push past this bias and formulate an opinion without bias. Racism doesn't only work one way in this movie, though. Even John's father initially had racist ideals when he was first shown the full truth of his son's wife-to-be. We see Tilly, the housemaid, hold certain cultural standards to John, initially believing him to be a no good troublemaker. These racist beliefs exist everywhere in the movie.
ReplyDeleteAnother topic the movie showcases is the issue of gender stratification. Throughout the movie we see the struggle of gender equality. We see the mothers of both respective parties of the marriage come to be okay with the marriage and even allow themselves to be happy for their children. Even though they may be fine with it, we see they have a large amount of trouble bringing their husbands to agree with them. The husbands, at first, don't seem to take their wife's opinion seriously, as it may be too tainted with emotion and not logic. Or so says Joanna's father. We see a lot of dismissive behavior towards females in general in this film, even from John himself. He gives himself the final say of whether the marriage should follow through or not, without even consulting Joanna. As you brought up in the end of the class, Joanna's father even gets the final say of whether the marriage passes or not. We also see the idea of faithfulness being brought up in the film. With the mysterious women in the building who likes to dance and maybe even the diner worker, we both see the the men ogle them right next to their partner. Both times the female didn't take action against it and Joanna even playfully pushed it aside.
We also see a huge generation gap in this film. I like what the monsignor said regarding this. He called John and Joanna "The next generation". He is able to see what the future holds while the parents of both of these people, and more specifically tr fathers, struggle to see the change the world is about to face. Joanna's father is the biggest show of this. He's still stuck in his time and fears that no matter what his child's marriage wont be accepted by society and in turn may cast a bad image upon his family. We see in the clip provided John tell off his father by saying he is a grown man now, and no longer the child that needs his father to guide him in ever decision in life. He brings up the point that the older generation want us to live they life THEY want us to live, not the life WE want to live.
Overall, this film was a great look into social conflict and I actually really enjoyed watching this film. It felt much like 12 angry Men, where people had to get over there biases and accept that what they believe may be wrong. Acer005
According to the Domino Effect, when an action, particularly negative, occurs it will continue to enhance causing similar, or greater, events to happen. This theory addresses the choices and bad just generated by individuals that influences actions. Via Guess Who's Coming to Dinner by Stanley Kramer, the audience is able to see how education (Chapter 20), race and ethnicity (Chapter 14), and social class within the United States (Chapter 11) can influence a chain of reactions. Fortunately these results of these actions have ultimately been broken and put to rest. As a fairly young couple has fell in love they have caused a cultural shock for their loved ones. Of course young love were supported among their family, but was young, interracial love supported? This 1960s film has highlighted several aspects of society that has been viewed as acts of deviance during this time period. Ultimately these evolutionary behaviors have caused social conflicts, as well as the racial.
ReplyDeleteTo begin, many have said that knowledge is power, but in many cases it can be the root of evil. This can be seen through this particular film. Education serves as a source of power that can break down negative matter. And guess who's coming to dinner, Joey, the lead female at, falls in love with and African-American male, John. By doing so, Joey's parents were forced to respond. One of their initial responses, Besides their overall shop, was that they rose Joey to see everyone as equals. Joey was raised to not see everyone as black or white, but to see everyone as human, which could have been an essential life lesson for many individuals during this era. By educating Joey to handle racial encounters in this manner Joey's parents have let Joey to become an equal opportunist. Essentially, Joey's parenting style exposure has led her to overcome ignorance, which is seen as an act of deviance. Deviance is seen as the exception of the bunch, and addresses those who do not obey by their society's norms. Which is not so negative after all. In fact these scenarios have led to evolutionary alterations throughout civilization that has ultimately worked out for the best. In fact, this can be related to other films such as the movie hairspray. In this movie, Tracey Turnblad fight for integration among a famous local television network. By doing so, she was seen as a deviant young lady, but she did not care. By challenging her community Tracy stood out; drawing more attention towards her. But she did not want the focus to be on herself in particular. Tracy wanted to highlight the wrongdoing of society by going against their beliefs. As a result, the television network was eventually racially and morally integrated. Also, education is a key factor when it comes to societal ranking. This can be seen via John's character. Despite his father's job as a butcher, John did not let that define him or his capabilities. After time passed, John turned out to be one of the most impactful, influential doctors of his time. Despite his racial background, John was praised and honored worldwide for his marvelous work.
S&D005
This particular scene of the movie displays obvious behaviors of deviance that will eventually cause a cultural change. In my opinion, this scene was merely the cultural change that bi-racial couples caused as time went on post-segregation, but on a smaller scale. The purpose of that scene was to give everyone a close up look of how deviance creates cultural change. John is stern with his word and it shocked me that he spoke the way he did to his father. Typically, especially in the African American culture, you are to respect your elders regardless of how much discourse you go through with them. Once John was fed up, he snapped on his father, which was deviant from his culture. What shocked me even more was that his father did not respond the way I would expect and old-school African American father to respond. I know from experience that if I were to talk to either of my parents the way John did to his, I would have been physically reprimanded. His father didn’t respond this way; instead, he remained silent. I strongly believe that if Johns father were to talk that way to his father, he most likely would have been beaten, as that’s just the way it is/was. Was John’s father submitting to the cultural change that was initiated by John’s deviance from the culture in which they live in? Looking at the bigger picture, John is notorious for his deviance. At that time, it was ridiculously abnormal to see a black man that was as successful as he was. He is a black man that wants to marry a white woman, and chose to not submit to his traditional culture because he felt the need to tell his father how he really felt. He even says in the scene that his father doesn’t know anything about him; how he feels, where he’s been, etc. I believe that John is the symbol for cultural change in this movie because that is probably the most sentimental concern I hear throughout the entire movie. It shows another obvious difference between his generation and his fathers; in the past, men expressing their need for emotion and sentiment, especially from their father, never happened. Deviance expressed by Joanna is seen in a much more subtle and less abrupt manner. When she is being deviant, it is much harder to tell her no than the man, which shows how gender also affected the cultural changes that occurred within the movie. The parents of both John and Joanna were much more reluctant to tell Joanna they were in the wrong. I believe this is because we are naturally more compliant with women, as women are seen as ‘softer’, so people tend to let up much easier on men than women. Deviance and cultural change are seen throughout this entire movie, with Joanna and John being the culprit for all of it. Puppies005
ReplyDeleteThis is a perfect example of deviance from the old to the new. As time goes on ideas change such as the ideals that the doctor and his father both held. Dr. Prentice sees himself as man and his father sees himself as a black man, this shows change in the cultural shift. The whole scene overall, captured the social codes that existed around race, and how it was broken if you aren’t with your own kind. There was tension between father and son, with the son breaking the social codes. Dr. Prentice deviates also by the way he spoke to his father. In the African American culture that would be deemed as extreme disrespect. What surprised me even more is that is father remained silent. I don’t blame his father yelling at him, it’s probably for a good intention because it was how generations before him were raised. He just wants to protect his son. John shakes him off telling him things have got to change. Even though they don’t agree with each other he still loves his father and he still loves him. All he’s asking for is a change of life. The way he wants to pave his life. Another way Dr. Prentice deviates his that he shows emotion while relaying his feeling to his father. Traditionally in our society, men aren’t supposed expose emotion. Dr. Prentice breaks the norm by doing what he did. Honeytea005
ReplyDeleteOne of the strongest aspects of deviance that stood out the most was from Tilly, the maid. When she stated that John was just a smooth talking smartass ***** trying to rise above his station in life. I saw this movie when I was 12 or 13 and was stunned at the way she felt about how John actually felt about Joanna. These were two “people” who had found something that many people today are still searching for. Growing up just after this time frame, I witnessed much of what was portrayed in the film and believe that this actually helped me to understand a little more as to why so many people had such a hard time with change. The scene with John and Joey in the cab sitting close together, as a couple, and kissing as the cabbie looked on with a look of hatred, and disgust. The manager of the art gallery and how she acted as if they had just committed some terrible crime by being together. This was how much of the U.S. reacted in that time period with outright shock and racism. This was a change from the patriarchal mindset where the man of the house is the final word on anything. We watch as the mothers begin to express their thoughts, knowing that it will mean little to the men, because that was how it was. It was a small step towards acceptance for the new generation and how we were beginning to accept the fact that change was inevitable, even if it was at a snail’s pace. The fact that many states had not “legalized” interracial marriage represents the conflict between the older generation and the newer generation. By raising their daughter, Joanna, to be more open to change and not to be “color” blind, the Drayton’s had given their child an opportunity to view everyone as a human being. The belief that we are dictated by what color we are, who we marry or date, what we believe in, is constantly being taught to us by the very people we look up to and expect to show us the “right” way to behave in society was depicted in this film. John was afraid of how his parents were going to react and did not want to tell them until much later. Joey knew that her parents were going to be upset, but she was willing to stand up to them because of the way they had raised her. She had been taught to look beyond the exterior of a person and accept them for who they were. I was born of mixed parents, with much of the racism coming from my Mother’s side of the family because she was marrying outside her “race”, but she was willing to leave and be with my Father because they saw more about each other. I believe that there was ethnic deviance and racism, profoundly presented in this film, but there was also the statement of cultural change. People were beginning to see that there was more than just black and white in the world. There was an opportunity to make a choice about how we wanted to live as a society of ever changing thoughts, ideas, and beliefs. Times change. They always will. We just need to roll with it and enjoy what comes next. Seoulman005
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