We had a fire investigator in class today. I found the information he shared with us to be fascinating. The three types of fires is accidental, natural and undetermined. Accidental fires are caused unintentionally but can destroy a lot of things. Natural things such as wildfires cause natural fires. Natural fires can be seen in places like California when there’s a drought. Undetermined fires are investigated and then can also go back and be investigated later on if more evidence comes to light. The process of investigating a fire can be like investigating shootings. It is like shootings because there are multiple steps in finding the reason behind (how the crime happened) the crime being committed. First you have to define the problem. This can be like looking through evidence or anything that could have set the fire on. Then collect data. This would be like collecting everything that looks like it was part of the fire. Next, analyze data. This would be like looking directly through the evidence for anything that pertains to the crime. Next develop a hypothesis. This involves making an intelligent conclusion about the crime in question. Second to last is test the hypothesis. Testing the hypothesis can include canvassing the area for anyone who knows something about the crime in question. Lastly, find the perp. This includes arresting the suspect. The NFPA stands for National Fire Protection Association. Fire Investigators have to be recertified every 4 years in order to still practice fire investigation. The NFPA is defined as the standard for explosions and fire investigations. This recertification is a test based on 100 points. This includes experience, training, maintenance of proficiency and multiple other things. The types of standards are the NFPA 1033 and NFPA921. Some people consider the NFPA standards book like the Bible. The different things that fuel a fire is Fire patterns, building systems, electricity and fire, fuel gas system, human behavior, legal considerations, planning the investigation and vehicle investigation. The requirements for an arson investigator is a 5 week course that includes 200 hours of instruction. 40 hours of mandatory firearm training. The NFPA 1033 and NFPA 921 standards also required to arson fires. I would just like to thank the investigator for coming in and teaching us about fire investigation. -chicubs003
I enjoyed reading your post as you hit on some points I didn't get a chance to in mine. However, I did notice you forgot one type of fire cause- incendiary. I did miss some things in my notes as well just because I was trying to write down as much as I could of what he was saying to us. Incendiary fires are those of which are set purposefully. Something I actually learned from your post was that of the 100 point scoring system for the re-certification for the fire investigators- I must have missed that portion. It is a very interesting job aspiration/career that is certainly giving me more thoughts on what I want to do with my future. GMan003
-chicubs003, I agree with you. There was great information shared on investigations. I was not aware of the categories fire could be placed into. I found this information highly interesting. I also learned about the fire investigation procedures. They use the scientific method for most if not all their steps when dissecting a crime scene. Hence, having some science knowledge is beneficial for investigators. Their work is based on cause and effect. As a whole, I was greatly unaware of the qualifications needed in ordered to be fully registered as a fire or arson investigator. Also, I didn’t realize there was a recertification process, I thought once an individual was in the system they would be with in the legal requirements.
I feel as if a Natural fire such as in Californian would be very tedious and time consuming due to the vast amount of land that must be covered. Also even though most are considered Natural fires due to drought conditions it would be interesting to know how it is determined to be arson. With the accelerant possible burning and it being impossible to have an electrical fire, I would like to know the process of determining such fires. jadist003
I liked your post because you covered some of the topics that I forgot in his presentation. The requirements for a fire investigator don’t seem to difficult to complete. I think that I could do the five week course and get to the 200 hours of instruction. If I could learn one more thing from his presentation I would want to know what these 200 hours of instruction contained. I don’t have any idea what they would be training you on because I have never really looked into this career. I think the best part would be the fire arm training because it really wouldn’t feel like work. Celtics003
In class today we had a arson chief investigator come in and talk to the class about what we needed to be a firefighter and arson investigator. No matter if you are a firefighter or a arson investigator you will need to know a lot of different types of codes because they give specific information for you will need depending on the situation. For a example firefighters and arson investigators have to know the NFPA 921 which is the guide for fire and explosion investigations. NFPA stands for National Fire Protection Association. Which requires four years of schooling before you can become a fire fighter. Regardless what you want to do when dealing with fires you will start as a firefighter and then move up in the ranks. There are 3 kinds of fires and they are accidental, natural, and undetermined . Accidental fire happen for example when you are cooking and you leave a pot on and you forget about the pot and it catches on fire. Natural fires occur for example when lighting strikes a tree or a pole. Undetermined fires are fires that you can’t really figure out how the fire started.To first determine which type of fire someone has you have to do the 7 step scientific method. The first is to recognize the need. Basically means a fire investigator has to look at the situation. Secondly he or she must collect the data. Which means the fire fighter has to look around the room or whatever building the fire investigator is in and collect the evidence to help determine what type of fire it is such as a natural, accidental, and or undetermined. Then analyze the data. Then develop the hypothesis. Which allows the fire investigator to figure out how did the fire happen.Then test hypothesis. Which allows the fire investigator to do a quick test to see if it was the wires and or if it looks like someone tried to set the place of fire. Lastly find the suspect. Some firefighters if they have took extra schooling to be a arson investigator are able to go find the suspect and find the suspect. If he or she tried to set the area on fire. To be a fire investigator it requires you must take a 5 week course which requires you to go for 200 hours and 40 mandatory hours of firearm training. Batman003
Being able to have a class in which we’re fortunate enough to have a teacher with connections and a personality in which other law enforcement officials respect is truly an awesome experience/privilege. Hearing something from out of a book is one thing, hearing something from someone who worked in that field and knows basics about other fields in law enforcement is another, but having someone who worked specifically in that field and knows it better than anyone is something that’s hard to describe in words as to just exactly how amazing it is. Hearing our guest speaker’s lecture on thursday truly helped open my eyes to just how broad of a spectrum the criminal justice field is- I never previously thought that a fire investigation would be as in depth as it is or that they would have their own evidence collection team and resources/technology. The amount of training/schooling required to become a fire investigator is pretty intense- typically, it’s required that you have at least a bachelor's degree (normally in fire science), as well as having attended a fire investigation course. In this course, depending on which classification you’re going into (arson or fire), you are required to attend 3 forty hour modules and obtain a certification by the OSFM (Office of the State Fire Marshal) as well as the NFA (National Fire Academy). I learned far too much in the lecture to list it all, so I’ll just state some of the more interesting things I learned that I was previously unaware of; firstly, there are 4 main causes of fire. The first being accidental, which is obviously something that happens with reckless behavior or just simply accidentally, the next being natural, like lightning, the third being incendiary (set intentionally), and the last being undetermined, in which they just weren’t able to find the origin of the fire or could but were unable to determine the actual cause of the start of the fire. A story that our guest speaker told that I found truly interesting was that of a man who desired a bigger boat but didn’t have the funds for it or just didn’t want to pay for it himself- so naturally he attempted an insurance fraud scam. The way in which he went about this was that he took 3-4 space heaters in his luxury boat and set them all relatively close to each other and spritzed the area with gasoline to make it look like the heaters overheated or caught something in the boat on fire. Where he messed up, according to our speaker, was that he dropped the bottle of the accelerant he was using by the door to the entrance of his boat. Later, during the investigation, the fire investigation team was able to discover this seemingly “accidental” fire to actually be an insurance fraud scam attempt in which I’m sure the owner of the yacht was punished pretty severely for. All in all, I thoroughly enjoyed our guest speaker and hope we have more to come throughout the semester. GMan003
I also agree that we were fortunate to have this speaker come in on one of his days off, unpaid. It was really nice of him to share his experience with us. I also agree it was an awesome experience and it was a privilege.I also think that it did widing the view on how big the criminal justice field is and it did get a lot of people in the clas thinking more about their future careers. I like how you gave specific examples of what he talked about and I really liked how you made sure to talk about how much of an honor it was to have him come and speak with us. -pizza003
It was another privilege to have somene from fire department in connection to law enforcement to speak to us in class. I learned a lot that i did not even know. Actually he said they all work together with law enforcement officers at the time of fire damage investigation. He told us there are 3 causes of fire, accidental, natural, and un determined. Some people just destroy their own property to get money from insurense. But a lot of people forget that there will be investigation about the cause of this fire first. He gave us an example of a guy who set fire to his own boat inorder to send a claim to his insurence to get money to buy a bigger boat. He did not play the game right and the investigators found that the boat was burned down from the gasoline that was sprinkled all over the boat. Same this i saw from the video, i was surprised that somebody can break your home and still also set the fire. Fire department and police department they are all have the same purpose in the community. They save life’s of citizens and protect them as well. I will give an example of 9/11 a lot of fire fighters were injured and some of them died in process of saving lifes of people. They never gave up in any situation same thing as police officers. I also learned that to work in fire department, you have to attend three forty hours modules and obtain certificate. It’s not something that you can just go for only physical training and qualify. Another impontant thing i leaned was, arson doesn’t have statues limitations. Somebody can be convicted and charged for the clime made years and years back. Also it is a great job that police and other departments work together to serve the community effectifully. GUSII002
Having a guest speaker about arson and how fire investigations occur and the importance of them was very interesting. The first step in trying to figure out a fire investigation is finding where the fire originated and than you can look for the cause. Whether it be somewhere near the origin or connected to something of the origin. There are two different classifications of investigators. The fire investigator and the arson investigator. The fire investigator is an of rank, higher up firefighter. An arson investigator is a firefighter but also a police officer that knows how to correctly obtain evidence. There are four different causes of fire. The first one is accidental, this happens when someone forgets they have something in the oven or tips over a candle accidently and other situations similar. The next is natural, which occurs in drier environments like the natural wildfires in California. Another cause is intentional, whether it be suicide or to try and get money from insurance. The last cause is undetermined. Finding evidence on how a fire started because it destroyed the majority of the evidence. Finding evidence is strictly based on the scientific method and the hypothesis is determining the cause in order to find evidence. Arson does not have a statute of limitation. When arson is a topic in the courtroom, the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 921 is the guide to follow for the standards. The attorney and judges are very strict on the standards of the National Fire Protection Association 921. Going through the scene of the investigation can be very difficult. The investigators have to be dressed well in order to layer through the debris, which includes wearing a respirator so they don’t breathe in the toxins. Many photos are taken throughout the investigation because they want to document everything to make sure the investigation is thorough. It is usually a whole investigation team that work together in order to find the cause of the solution. Investigating a fire can take a lot of time ust like any other crime you are trying to solve. Not only does it take time, it also takes a lot of people working together correctly to help solve the crime. Having someone come in to talk to us about arson investigation was very interesting and informative. I wish he would have talked more about the hiring process of becoming an arson investigator and how the correspond with also having the same qualifications as a police officer. #notaplumber003
Having a guest speaker about fire investigation was really a privilege. the reason i say that is because we actually had a chief come in and talk and its rare to have a fire chief come in and talk about some important things that we should know and also give us tips on this that the fire department offer and what their job is. it is important that firemen assist the fire investigator by being extremely careful in attributing the fire to any cause, unless they are reasonably sure. The nature of fire is such that it will alter, change, or destroy the physical characteristics of the materials burned. A fire could conceal or change the very nature of the materials used to start it! Because of this, some incendiary fires are never detected, and consequently never investigated.Every fire has a cause and every fire has a reason. Cause and reason are often used as synonymous terms, but they are quite different. When used in connection with an arson investigation, cause is defined as, that which occasions or effects a result. Reason is defined as a motive leading to an action. The cause may be accidental, malfunctioning of equipment, or arson, as well as many others. The reason may be any one of the motives for arson.Some investigators will automatically check all equipment, appliances, heating, electrical wiring, fuses, flues, chimneys, and other possible causes. Once they have located the correct cause they will probably have the point of origin. These investigators are using the method of finding the cause, then determining the point or origin.The fire investigator, of course, must have a good knowledge of the chemistry of fire, including the fire triangle in addition to the questions and instructions given above. When he applies all of these, he will have conducted a very thorough examination of the fire scene. This should enable him to leap the gap from the probable to the true cause of the fire.One of the challenging aspects of fire investigation is the multi-disciplinary basis of the investigator's job. As fires can be caused by or involve many ignition sources and fuels, fire investigators need to know not only the science of fire behavior, but also to have a working understanding of many different areas of study including construction, electricity, human behavior, and mechanical devices. For example, if there is a gas appliance at the origin of the fire, an investigator should know enough about appliances to either include or exclude it as a possible cause of the fire. Fire investigators sometimes work with forensic engineers, such as forensic electrical engineers when examining electrical appliances. Bball003
I agree with your post. There is so much that goes into fire investigations. Before having the Chief come in and speak, I didn't realize just how much went into investigations. It gives me a whole new appreciation for the craft that fire departments have. -AS003
Fire investigations was very interesting. It was quite the cool learning experience, to get to listen to the former chief of fire investigations. What I didn't really realize before this lecture, was how important investigators roles are when they are investigating fires. I also didn't know how intense the training was for firefighters, to become fire investigators, and the two types of fire investigation. Chief Maclin explained that to become a fire investigator, firefighters have to take three 40 hour modules, to become a fire investigator that will give firefighters the certification through the national fire academy. To become an arson investigator, you have to go to a 5 week academy that includes 200 hours of instruction, to get your certification. I also learned that firefighters who are investigators, have the opportunity to get firearms training, and get certifications to become peace officers. Fire investigators who have the peace officer training, grants them arrest power when they find the right suspect of a fire crime. It was also very interesting, to see the certain aspects that fire investigators consider when they are investigating fires. The 4 causes that could cause a fire like accidental, natural, incendiary, and undetermined. The fire investigators have very interesting tactics when investigating a fire. They consider building systems, electrical systems, and activity that was going on inside the building to maybe find a way to determine how the fire started. Investigators will also take pictures of the crowd outside of where the fire was. They do this to see if a face keeps showing up, because arsonist like to return to the scene of where they created the fire. If investigators see a recurring face in the crowd that could narrow down the search for a suspect. It was also very interesting to see the certain standards that investigators have to follow to conduct a correct investigation. The NFPA standards are what investigators need to have a good understanding of. There are 16 standards in NFPA, that set the bar for guidelines that investigators must know. There are certain things that investigators can and cannot do in an investigation. For example when an investigator is interrogating a suspect they cannot use certain phrases or words, because that would be implying that the suspect is guilty. Investigators have to follow the rules just like police officers. It was very interesting seeing the fire investigation side of things. I-Like-Cereal003
I also did not realize how important the investigators roles were in an investigation. It makes sense on why fire fighters training are intense. You have to be move quickly, possible carry people out, and lift things. I did not know that an investigator can not do certain things in an investigation and I also did not know that the investigators have to follow certain rules just like the police. I was surprised on how many standards there was in the NFPA. I thought the presentation was interesting as well. Definitely learned some things that I did not know. -Soccer003
I have never realized how much a firefighter has to be a investigator in there work force. He first went to the outside of the house to show the little mark on the window to show of the attempted break in. There is many details that he was showing that goes into a fire investigation. He goes into the walls and fire lines on where the main blaze was in the room. The bed was the source of the fire which was the main source of the fire. He went to the outside of the room and was talking about the door and the showed the sud to show that the door was closed throughout the time of the fire. Then he was talking about the placement of the jewelry boxes. That goes to show how much of detail goes into a fire investigation when a burglary arson is possible. I can see if the room was a total lose or if the building was gone how the investigation would have to be taken differently. The amount of detail he tried to put in seven minute video was a lot. The way the fire burns is and the marking it leaves shows anything from how long and how hot the fire would burn or how long it lasted. That would be how acdemy would teach and learn how that investigation process for the firefighters is very detailed. I enjoyed learning on how the placement of the jewelry boxes were placed and the window marked made it a very easy case to solve for a arson. The investigation with fire and police are very similar in many ways, in the investigation process with many different techniques to make the outcome of the cases Firefighters investigation process looks like has little more detail being most fires would damage or ruin most evidence make the case a lot more difficult. I do like how they made the actor play out the acting act of the arson case they proved, to show how the suspect was able to do the arson. Goes to show how easy it is do the arson or how easy it is to play the arson to find out how or why they did it to get the suspect. That would make the investigation process easier on the fire investigator with the process and the protocols to find a suspects or suspects. DirtTrack003
i agree with you the fire investigations was a very eye opening experience to learn about and the experience they have to go through during there investigations process. The academy is very intense and long but learning and watching the process of the investigator. Learning about the fire way of things is similar but also different in ways. The amount of detail and knowledge having to know they way the fire burns and marking that details of what those mean is a big when you have many protocols when they have to go through with the guides and NFPA. DIrtTrack003
My over all view of fire and arson investigation was extremely narrow. I was under the assumption that both these terms had the same definition, however, I am greatly mistaken. Fire investigators have no kind of police power. Where as an arson investigator possesses more police power. To become a fire investigator there are several things to get done before becoming fully certified. First, three modules which is structured like a class needs to be taken; in total the three modules are forty hours long and needs to be taken consecutively from start to finish. Secondly, they need to acquire a certification by OSFM and a certification through national fire academy. Through this program an individual will be exposed to many interesting things; such as learning the fundamentals of basic fire science, fire patterns, building systems, electricity and fire, fuel gas system, human behavior, legal considerations, planning the investigation and vehicle investigations. Human behavior can be grouped into insurance fraud. The hardest crime to solve is vehicle fire; as vehicles have many different flammable fluids that is legal for its uses. Fire investigators will be highly proficient in these areas before they are considered for the job. Arson investigators are similar but they have higher requirements for their certification. They require five weeks of class room instruction which is equal to two-hundred hours. This two-hundred hour also includes forty hours of fire arm training. The individual who takes the approach of an arson investigator will have a more diverse base for their career as it addresses more avenues. NFPA is National Fire Prevention Association. Within this association there are two certifications; the 1033 and 921. These two are different, the 1033 is more standard as it addresses hazardous materials, failure analysis, fire chemistry and fire dynamics. The other is 921 which is a guide for fire and explosion investigations. Through this guide there is the seven-step process, recognizing the need, define the problem, collect data, analyze the data, develop a hypothesis, test the hypothesis and finally select a final hypothesis. Once the final hypothesis has been established the investigator can not change their claim. There are four possible categories for a fire to be placed in; accidental, natural, interneural and undetermined. So, the investigator must place the fire into the best suited category. Once an individual is certified, they are required to renew their certification every four years as this acts as a refresher course. This recertification is based on accumulation of 100 points. I have learned many things about arson and fire investigation. Even cops need heroes too. -CoalRoller003
I agree with you, from the beginning, I never knew there was a difference between the two investigators. But once the professor started talking about the differences I realized that they were two different concepts. The certification through the OSFM is very interesting because of all the different concepts you learn about arson investigation and how to correctly find the evidence in order to find the solution. The different certifications also include a lot of training, learning, and problem solving to not only become a good firefighter and investigator. Learning about the different categories of the causes of arson and why a fire starts was very interesting. I thought this was very interesting because my main goal is to be a detective. Therefore knowing these types of causes will help me in the long run when I go into that professen. Also knowing the difference between the two different certifications was also helpful and useful. I also didn’t know there were two different certifications to inquire in order to become an investigator. The NFPA also known as National Fire Prevention Association 921, is a guide that is used for court cases in order to get a better understanding of the rules and regulation. #notaplumber003
I also agree with you. Coming into the talk I did not know there was a difference either between the two investigative positions of the fire department. The different certifications also include a lot of training, learning, and problem solving to become a firefighter and investigator. Learning about the different categories of the causes of arson and why a fire starts was interesting I thought as well. The certification through the OSFM is very interesting because of all the different concepts you learn about arson investigation and how to correctly find the evidence in order to find the solution. The NFPA also known as National Fire Prevention Association 921. This is seen as guide, not a bible, because it is always getting updated every few years. NFPA 921 is used for court cases in order to get a better understanding of the rules and regulation of the fire investigation process. -CUBSFAN003
It was such an honor to have retired Fire Investigator Phillip Maclin come and speak to our Introduction to Investigations class. It was insightful to know that based on 20 ILCS 2910 Peace Officer Fire Investigator Act, fire/arson investigation is connected to criminal investigations and that Arson investigators have police arresting powers. One would assume that a police detective would be responsible for the investigations, but 20 ILCS 2910 specifically states “ Any person who is a sworn member of any organization and paid fire department of a political subdivision of this State and is authorized to investigate fires or explosions for such political subdivisions and to determine the cause, origin and circumstances of fires or explosions that are suspected to be arson or arson-related crimes, may be classified as a peace officer by the political subdivision or agency employing such person. A person so classified shall possess the same powers of arrest, search and seizure and the securing and service of warrants as sheriffs of counties, and police officers within the jurisdiction of their political subdivision.” The steps to becoming a fire and arson investigator is similar and very lengthy. For a fire investigator you must complete three modules which are 40 hours each, these modules must be taken consecutively. You must also obtain certification by OSFM (Office of the Illinois State Fire Marshall) and certification by the National Fire Academy. The topics of study are Basic Fire Science, Fire Patterns, Building Systems, Electricity Fire, Fuel Gas system, Human Behavior, Legal Considerations, Planning the Investigation and Vehicle Investigation. For an Arson investigator you must complete a five week course with 200 hours of instruction. Modules must be taken consecutively with 40 hours of mandatory firearms training. You must also obtain certification from OSFM and the National Fire Academy. The topics of study are; Fire Science, Fire Chemistry, Thermometry, Thermodynamics, Fire Dynamics, Computer Fire, Fire Investigations, Fire Analysis, Fire Investigations Mythology and Technology, Hazardous Material, Failure analysis and analytical tools, Fire protection systems Evidence documentation, collection and preservation, Electricity and electrical systems. You must also recertify every four years. It was also helpful to know the different types of fires that can be started; grease fire, natural fires, incendiary fire, and undetermined fires. I also feel that it is good that there is no statue of limitations on arson. Being that some fire investigations take years and some suspects are unknown this is helpful for family’s that have loved ones who have lost their lives to arson find justice. jadist003
I learned alot from the presentation in class. We got to hear from someone who spent 27 years on the fire department. This was a great opportunity and it was really awesome how he took time out of his day to come speak to us, unpaid, so this was really just to teach and give us insight. He went through a lot of really good information. I learned that there are two types of investigators one is a fire that has no police powers. The other is arson who is like both firefighter and police officer. He also told us the the nfpa 921 is the guide for it it's almost like a bible for fire and explosion investigations. He also talked about nfpa standard serves as a document of professional qualifications for investigators is nfpa 1033. He also informed us about how investigation recertification occurs how often about every four years. He also took us through the steps to the seven step scientific method, the first is recognize the need. He also talked about basic fire scene and fire patterns. He also talked about building systems and how the effect the equation like the doors, sprinklers and exits. Even fire alarms are part of the building system. He also talked about how there was three types of arson accidental scenery so intentional, and undetermined. He also talked about the steps it takes to go into the field. It takes a lot of work you have to get a lot of certificates. You have to get one from the osfm and a certificate from national fire academy. He was very informative and really gave a detailed presentation. It definitely left me with a lot to think about going into my career. -pizza 003
I agree with you about it being an honor for him to come talk to us. There was many things he said about fire investigations that I had no idea about so therfore he did his job and taught us multiple things. I also agree with how you said he gave us insight because he gave us real life examples of things and real pictures and even some of the people he knew. The NFPA 921 and NFPA 1033 were very interesting a similar but was fun learning about there diffrences and what step each one had to take to get to a certain point. -brooklyn003
In class on Thursday we had a retired fire chief come in to speak with us and teach the class about fire investigations. Before having the Chief come in a talk, I did not realize how much went into being a fire investigator. I figured it was something along the lines of finding a cigarette and saying it was from that. Case closed. What I came to realize is that it is far more in depth than that. To start off, people who investigate these types of fires have to have many hours of training. The two types are fire investigation and arson investigation. The fire investigation training has 3 modules that are 40 hours each. When this is completed, they are certified by OSFM. In this training they cover topics ranging from basic fire science to the human behavior behind fires. The other Investigator type is arson. The arson investigators have to go through a 5 week course that is 200 hours and a mandatory 40 hour firearms training. Once this is complete they are then certified by OSFM. One interesting thing I learned from the guest speaker is that there are 4 causes of a fire. These causes are accidental, natural, incendiary, and undetermined. If an investigator is not certain on the cause of a fire, it is best to list it as undetermined. In doing so, they have the ability to come back to it and be able to charge someone for the cause of the fire if need be. This has no time limit on being able to bring criminal charges against someone. The next thing I learned about was the NFPA standards. The first standard being NFPA 1033. This is a document showing the knowledge investigators are to have and keep to date on to be certified as an investigator. The other one is NFPA 921. This sets the bar for all investigators on how to handle fire investigations. Some refer to this as a bible, but in reality it is constantly changing and updating, so to refer to this as a bible is not completely true. These standards help when it comes time to be recertified. This is required to happen every 4 years no matter what. This is used to maintain proficiency. In order to do this you have to obtain 100 accumulation points in those 4 years. I think that after having this guest speaker come in to talk about his craft, I have a whole new understanding of fire and investigations. -AS003
I also never thought much about fire investigation, I just assumed that a detective would just do it. At first, I thought what could be so important to investigating a fire but then I realized that people intentionally set things on fire to get rid of evidence. I think it’s a good idea the countless hours of training given to investigate because fire is a very destructive thing. I also learned a lot about the difference between fire and arson investigation, which is helpful to know in a investigation class. taco003
I thought the fire investigation talk was very interesting. I went into the talk with not that much knowledge about the fire investigation process or the different types. I learned that fire investigators play a major role in finding how fire started. To become a fire investigator, and the two types of fire investigation, the Chief said that firefighters have to take three “40” hour modules. When completed that will give firefighters the certification through the national fire academy. To become an arson investigator, you have to go to a 5 week academy that includes 200 hours of instruction, to get your certification. Some firefighters who are investigators, have the opportunity to get firearms training, and get certifications to become peace officers. The 4 causes that could cause a fire like accidental, natural, incendiary, and undetermined. The fire investigators have specific tactics when investigating a fire. They have a lot to consider when figuring out how a fire started. They consider anything from building systems, electrical systems, and activity that was going on inside the building to maybe find a way to determine how the fire started. I found it really interesting that Investigators will take pictures of the crowd outside of where the fire was. They do this to see if a face keeps showing up at the scenes of fires. Arsonist criminals like to return to the scene of where they created the fire, I learned. Seeing a recurring face in the crowd could narrow down the search for a suspect. It was also interesting to see the certain standards that investigators have to follow to conduct a correct investigation. Fire Investigators have to be recertified every 4 years in order to still practice fire investigation. The NFPA is the standard for explosions and fire investigations. This recertification is a test based on 100 points. This includes experience, training, maintenance of proficiency and multiple other things. The types of standards are the NFPA 1033 and NFPA921. Overall, I really enjoyed the chief coming and talking with our class and I walked away with new understanding of how the fire investigation process looks and works. -CUBSFAN003
It takes a lot of time for someone to become a fire investigator. It is worth the time though, you are able to complete more training and gain more knowledge. If a fire investigator is able to pass the law enforcement training they will be able to actually arrest people. To become an Arson investigator it takes even more time. It is a 5 week course compared to the 40 hours of the fire investigator. I never knew that these two things existed so it was fun to learn about them.-ClarkKent003
The fire chief was very informative when he came to speak to our class on Thursday. This has honestly got me thinking about becoming a firefighter. One of the first things that the Chief talk about is Systematic layering. You sift through the fire debris piece by piece and layer by layer. You are always looking for the origin of the fire, once you have found the origin then you can determine the cause of the fire. You should always wear your PPE because the fire creates small contaminates that you could breathe in real easily. This is really dangerous to your health and could cause cancer. When you are determining the cause of the fire, you always want to take a lot of photos. The chief said that the number of photos could range from 300 to 1000 plus. Another thing that I found interesting is the fire sprinklers in our room. I might be the only one that did not know that those were fire sprinklers but now I know. I will be looking for them in every room that I will go into now. Another thing that we learned from the chief is the 4 cause of fires. The first cause is accidental. An example of this is when you are cooking, you hear a knock at the door and you answer it. You get into a conversation with the person and forget that you are cooking, when you rush back it has become a raging fire. That would be an accidental fire because it was an accident. The second type of cause is Natural. This is when lightning strikes a tree and cause it to light on fire. This is an act of nature that cannot be controlled. The third type of cause is Incendiary, this is a fire that is set by purpose. An example of this kind of cause that the fire chief gave us is when a yacht owners boat caught on fire. The owner of the boat stated that is was an accidental fire started by a heater that malfunction. Come to find out that the Owner sprayed the cord with gasoline and the surrounding room to make the fire spread. He intently set the fire so that he could claim the insurance money so that he could buy a bigger yacht. The last cause of fire is called undetermined. This is when the firefighters just have no clue how the fire started.- ClarkKent003
I used to be a volunteer firefighter and all I know we did was to fight fires and respond to medical calls. I did not know they had more opportunities to reach past this. When we had a fire and once we put it out, the state fire marshal was called because we cant investigate on our own. I think if someone is interested in being a firefighter but is also torn with being a police officer and find both careers intriguing, it would be a very wise idea to look into arson investigations because you still operate as a firefighter so you still get to have fun in that sense but you also get to do the interrogations and investigating to where you operate as a literal detective. I always knew arson people come back to the scene and they enjoy it but he said taking 300 photos at least I thought that was absolutely extreme until I understood every angle counts because you could go back and look at these pictures and find something you completely missed the first time or while on scene due to the chaos and all the commotion going on. I think it is amazing and he was very knowledgeable. -holywaffles003
The fire investigator we had in class was an extremely knowledgeable man. I think his experience on such a large department in a big city and everything he accomplished helped him in the long run and made him a very good teacher, educator and how he was as a firefighter. He said you cannot look at the cause before you look at the origin. I like how the fire investigation process kind of replicates a criminal investigation process because you have to look at the crime before you dig in deep. I had no idea though that arson investigators actually have arresting powers and that fire investigators though have no police powers and they mainly do scene processing and interrogations. I did not know that fire investigations took place within the department too, I honestly figured it was strictly a police matter. A fire investigator only needs 40 hours ultimately to become one while a arson investigator is a 5 week course and is a functioning firefighter with police powers. He said there are four causes for a fire, 1) Accidental, 2) Natural, 3) Intentional, 4) Undetermined. Accidental falls under cooking and natural is more if lightening was to strike, intentional is pretty cut and dry, someone had the intentions and did and then undetermined too is cut and dry, it is just simply unknown. Human behavior is vindictive he said as well. Vehicle fires are the hardest to fight he said because of all the knew things in cars and the way they are modeled. I also did not know that Peoria has its own evidence evidence preservation team. I did not even know that was a thing. He said they are very strict on the NFPA guidelines, which makes sense because it is a professional organization and they need to be. They use the scientific method to guide through fire inspection which I think absolutely has to be dreadful and pushes me away from wanting a fire science degree even more. I understand why they have to use that though. It helps them find the ultimate determinate in which of the four causes was used and how it happened. Both of these investigator certifications have to re-certify every four years. I truly did not understand how intense it could be or what the options were past firefighting. I figured it was just firefighters were firefighters and could not move too far past that so I find this amazing. -holywaffles003
I liked your post it seemed like you remember quite a lot and I agree with you when you talk about how vehicle fires are the hardest to fight he said because of all the knew things in cars and the way they are modeled. I also did not know that Peoria had its own evidence preservation team. I was also thinking that the scientific method was some thing that I would not enjoy doing and it just makes that fire science degree even more difficult and I am glad that there are people out there who are able to figure that stuff out and have the patients to practice it. -RHB003
I like what you had to say. In your blog, I liked how you mentioned how the processes that they use in the fire investigations are extremely similar to those of the criminal justice procedures. One thing that I really liked in your blog was how you mentioned the different causes of fire. When he spoke about this and mentioned that some fires were not able to be figured out and some are accidents and or on purpose or just natural, it kind of opened my mind to thinking more about how awesome it really is that these investigators are able to figure out what type of fire really occurred. -Anchorman003
I really enjoyed the speaker's presentation. I thought there was a lot of interesting things that the speaker talked about. The speaker served twenty seven and a half years and is now retired. Fire investigations is deciding the origin, the cause, and the development of the fire or explosion or both. You have to look at the origin first before the cause. There are two classifications. There is fire investigator and arson investigator. The fire investigator determines what the origin was and the cause. An arson investigator is a combination of a firefighter and a police officer. I thought it was interesting how this position was eliminated but it was brought back in 2010. I thought it was interesting when the speaker talked about how to become a fire investigator. You have to complete three modules and each of them are forty hours. The also have to be taken consecutively. You have to have certification by OSFM and certification by the National Fire Academy. I learned what the four fire causes are. The four fire causes are accidental, natural fire, insineary, or undetermined. To become an arson investigator, you have to go through a five week course and it’s two hundred hours of instruction. There is also a mandatory firearms certification and that is forty hours. I thought it was interesting how in fire investigations, you have to have firearm training. I thought it was interesting when the speaker talked about the NFPA 21. He described it as being a guide, not a bible. This is supposed to guide you through the investigation. The speaker also said that the guide changes every three year and the bible never changes. An investigator has to be up to date with the basic knowledge of sixteen items. Some of the items are fire science, electricity and electrical systems, fire analysis, fire investigation technology, explosive dynamics and a few more. I thought it was interesting when the speaker said that they never use the term “suspicious” in an investigation. The speaker said that it implies criminal. I also thought it was interesting that arson does not have statute of limitations. I thought it was interesting when the speaker was talking about photo documentation. They can take anywhere from three hundred to a thousand pictures. Sometimes it’s more than a thousand. I really enjoyed the presentation and I learned a lot about fire investigations. -Soccer003
Having the fire investigator in class was definitely a valuable learning experience. I had always known there was a lot to fire investigation but I don’t think I would have imagined it was this much. First of all I had no idea that they could be peace officers and have the power to arrest people. Though now that I know this it makes sense why they would as they deal in criminal activities just like the police do. I also found it interesting how much detail goes into a fire investigation. I can imagine the work is rather tedious especially having to go through layers of evidence and taking all those pictures and having to examine them all. It seems as though there is an incredible amount of work that goes into a fire investigation. It was cool learning about some of the things that fire investigators are expected to have at least a basic amount of knowledge in. I was surprised there were 16 of them, a lot of them made sense and were expected but some I didn’t expect to hear about (though it’s not surprising after hearing it) like thermodynamics, explosion dynamics, and electricity and electrical systems. I also appreciate the fact they rely so much on the scientific method. It’s pretty cool that it’s also a science and follows the same method you would use to figure out other scientific problems. I also learned it can take a lot of training and you must continue to train and get recertified. It’s obvious why this is important, fire fighters along with police officers have important jobs that require them to stay sharp as it could cost people's lives if they are wrong. Avatar003
When the fire investigator came to class I really learned a lot. I didn’t even know that fire investigators existed before he came in and talked to us. I thought that fire fighters and fire chiefs were about the only professions in that field. Turns out, fire investigators have a lot of power and responsibilities including the ability to carry a firearm. I thought that there wasn’t a position in the fire career that allowed you to carry a gun so I thought that was cool. I learned that a fire investigator has to look into a fire and figure out what exactly caused the fire. They do a lot of things that a police investigator does such as take pictures of the room. He said that it would not be unusual for them to take 500 pictures of a fire scene and to pin everything around the room. They do this to figure out if there was foul play involved in the fire and so they don’t miss or forget anything about the scene. I think that this would be very difficult to do because finding out what caused a fire has to be hard. All of your evidence is most likely burned or destroyed so It has to be hard to figure out what it looked like before the fire. A question I had was what is the most common cause to a fire that they encounter. I think that it would be either a stove left on too long or maybe a cigarette butt in the trash. I don’t think that I could ever do this job for a number of reasons. The first reason is because I sweat a lot and would definitely be drenched in sweat every time I walked into a fire scene. Another reason is because I am too tall to be a fire fighter. How many fire fighters do you see that are 6’5? The answer is probably low because us tall people can’t fit in the tight spaces that a burning building might have. I could carry a person out of the fire, but I don’t think that I could get to them unless there is a lot of room. Overall this was a great learning experience for me and I hope he visits one of my other classes to talk. Celtics003
I thought that the fire investigations topic on Thursday it was very interesting in itself. On the other hand and I felt so honored to have the chief in to talk us through the fire investigation chapter in the book. prior to this class meeting I had very little about fire investigations in the different types of requirements needed by arson investigators. To become a fire investigator, firefighters have to take 340 hour modules. After that if they want to pursue the level of an arson investigator they will have to go to a five week Academy and they includes 200 hours of instruction to get that certification. I also learned that there are four causes of fire and they are accidental, natural, incendiary, and undetermined. The chief went into detail especially on why fire investigators will label a fire as undetermined. Often times the cause of fire is undetermined in the case that evidence comes about down the road they are able to go back and solve the case and that would not be possible if they had already determined it to be one of the other three causations of fire. this was extremely important because arson much like murder does not have any statute of limitation meaning that his evidence has brought forth 50 years from now or even longer they can still prosecute. There is a lot that goes into investigating a fire you have to consider a number of different things when figuring out why the fire started. They have to consider things such as electrical Systems, building systems, and even human behavior. One of the last things that we learned about with the NFPA standards. more specifically the NFPA 1033 and this is a document showing the knowledge of the investigator and it has to be renewed every four years. The other document it is the NFPA 921 and this is basically a guideline for all fire investigations end it is the standard throughout the whole fire industry. this is a very important document for a fire investigator to know inside and out especially when being questioned by a defense attorney. -RHB003
From our last class on Thursday, I learned several different things from our guest speaker. I had no idea that it was possible for a firefighter to have any sort of police power and thought that they only had to worry about putting out fires and making sure everyone is safe. I knew they had a lot of work to do and was surprised to find out they could have some of the same powers as a police officer by becoming an arson investigator. It was interesting to learn about all the different requirements with schooling and training people have to go through to become fire investigators. It really takes a lot of work and I thought it was cool that you have to get recertified every few years. Another thing that I had found interesting was that the National Fire Protection Association 921 guide is updated about every three years. I found that interesting because it shows that there is going to be more than one correct way to investigate and that they are actively working to improve on their work to make their investigations as best as they can. Another thing I learned from the speaker was that there are four main causes of fires and those are: natural, accidental, incendiary, and unknown. I thought there would be a lot more than four categories, but it makes sense. I found out that if an investigator is unsure of how the fire started that it is best to say the cause is unknown so they may reopen the case if they need to. I learned quite a bit from having a speaker come in and talk to us and I'm glad we are able to have opportunities to learn from experts. -smokeybear003
So, after class on Thursday I felt that I learned so much information I never thought I would be introduced to. I am happy that the fire investigator came in to show and teach us ways we can use the information given to us to help in the future. With all the laws and the training procedures they told us about I feel confident about my understanding in fire investigations. Making sure to understand the origin, cause and development. From seeing what you have to do to become a fire investigator. Covering the 3 modules to become a fire investigator. When being told that they are 40 hours to me sounded a bit ridiculous at first but since I didn’t have a full grasp until what the investigator said went into them. That was when it clicked in my head on why it took so long. Having ranging topics from basic fire science all the way to vehicle investigations. Given that knowledge helped my concerns for the modules being that long of a time period for just one of them. With them covering the three types of fires there are which was lightning, intentionally, and undetermined. Out of those three I have heard of people intentionally starting fires to try and claim insurance to get better vehicles or homes. In my eyes that is truly messed up that you’d try and destroy something you had to earn but got greedy and wanted the next best thing. The investigator did explain that with the story of the gentleman wanting a better yacht, so he set a fire to get a bigger one. I didn’t expect there to be another type of investigator. Given that arson is a form of intentional fire. The arson investigator has a lot more to do to become an arson investigator. They must go through a 5 week course and 200 hours of modules that must be taken consecutively. The last thing I found interesting was the NFPA 921 7 step process on the investigators conclusion for their own hypothesis. They must make sure to recognize the need first and followed through with defining the problem at hand. Third, collect on scene data then fourth analyze said data. With these first four steps are very crucial to even begin the hypothesis. -MrWadeWilson003
Learning the differences between Fire and Arson investigation was very interesting, because I never thought much about what it meant to investigate them. A retired fire chief explained the different qualifications and facts that take place with investigation of a fire. He explained that fire and arson may be the same thing, but they both have different powers when investigating. When it comes to investigating there are different qualification for fire and arson, for fire there are 30-40 hours of modules, academy, etc. They explain different topics that involve fires and causes. For arson, there are more requirements like 200 hours of modules and 40 hours of firearms. He came to explain the different causes of fires which are accidental, natural, incendiary, and undetermined. He also said that when closing a case, if there is at least a doubt of the cause of which you should put undetermined. If the case was closed with something else then that was it, you couldn’t go back and change it. There are National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Standards like 1033 that is more basic knowledge and 921 that is like a guide for analysis. It was interesting that arson doesn’t have a statute of limitations, that you can investigate at any time. Also, it’s science so they follow a scientific method that involves recognizing, define, collect, analyze, hypothesis, test it, and final decision. When investigating a fire it was mentioned in the video that you start off by observing on the outside for any evidence. There might be hints of any entrance or escape. When inside you look for where the fire started and where it traveled to. Which helps for understanding what happen and why. Also, when investigating there need to be assurance if anything looks normal. It was helpful to learn all of this because it can help when investigating another crime scene. yellow003
I wasn't able to be there for the whole presentation so I am glad you talked about the science of it and how they use a scientific method, I also liked how you brought up the video and that they search for signs of entrance or escape. I have never thought much about fire investigation like you said at the top of your blog so I am glad we were able to learn from him and that he took his time to tell us/teach us about this career, it is nice to see what other kind of careers are out there.Ark003
On Thursday last week, our class was lucky enough to be able to have a guest speaker come in who was a former fire investigation chief and speak to us about the different protocols that go on and the rules of being a fire investigator. When he first started the presentation he started off by saying that fire investigation is defined as the process of determining origin, cause and development of a fire and explosion. This means that fire investigators jobs are to investigate how a fire or explosion took place. A fire investigator is able to figure out exactly how a fire started and where. If the fire was started by gasoline on purpose or if it was an accidental kitchen fire, a fire investigator can figure it out. During the speech and presentation, he talked about two different types of classifications. The first one being fire investigators and the second one being arson investigators. Also during the presentation, he mentioned that there are a few different causes of fire. There is accidental fires, natural fires, incinderary fires which are intentional, and last but not least undetermined fires which sadly enough are unable to be determined. Arson investigators are a little different from a fire investigator. One of the main differences is that an arson investigator carries a gun and has to have fourty hours of fire arms training. One thing that was mentioned during the speech was NFPA 1033 and NFPA 921. NFPA 1033 is the standard for professional qualification for fire investigators. NFPA 921 is a guide for fire and explosion investigations. One thing that I thought was really interesting was the steps at which these investigators take to find their results. They actually follow a seven step process using the scientific method. The first step is to recognize the need (identify problem). The second step is to define the problem. The third step is to collect data. The fourth step is to analyze the data (Inductive reasoning). The fifth step is to develop a hypothesis. The sixth step is to test the hypothesis (deductive reasoning). And the final step, step number seven is to select the final hypothesis and determine the cause. I thought it was awesome seeing and hearing how these investigators went about their work. One of the last things that the speaker mentioned was recertification. Recertification is something that is required every four years by all fire and arson investigators. I think that this is a good thing because it keeps everyone in the system up to date and makes sure that they are going through the procedures and processes correctly. Overall, I actually really enjoyed Thursdays class and having the speaker come in and present his knowledge to the class. I felt like I learned a lot from his speech and I definitely think that he should be invited back in the following semesters to come to share his knowledge with more individuals. -Anchorman003
The guest speaker talked about being a fire and arson investigator, I think this profession would be cool but incredibly difficult. He talked about the schooling and how there is an academy for it, just like the FBI academy. It takes one-hundred and twenty hours of class, which consists of three modules that are forty hours each. The academy is named the National Fire Academy. He said that there are four causes to a fire; accidental the kind that happens when someone is cooking and walks away for a minute and forget they were cooking and when he asked the whole class if you should put a grease fire out with water everyone knew it was a no. Then there are natural fires like if lightning were to hit a tree and start a fire, incendiary like a grenade, and undetermined. With the undetermined ones sometimes one of the fire investigators that are a little lazy will say it was electrical without truly trying to figure out. I wasn’t able to get much more information than that because I wasn’t able to stay for the whole presentation but I was glad I got to learn what I did. I appreciate the time he took out of his day to come and teach the class about what he used to do. Ark003
I had fun taking the IAT tests, I decided to take five instead of the three we were required to take. The first one I took was the weapons one, it was to see if I associated harmless objects or weapons with White Americans or Black Americans and my results were that I don’t associate either race with the weapons or objects. I was not surprised by this because I don’t associate either race with anything else so I don’t see why I would do that with those. The next test I took was the sexuality one and it said I had no automatic preference for gay or straight people. I was surprised by this because I thought of myself as someone who would slightly prefer gay people over straight because I have more gay/bisexual friends than straight. The test after that was the disability test and it was seeing if I have an automatic preference for abled or disabled. The results showed that I had no preference for one over the other. I was also surprised by this, I thought I might have an automatic preference for abled since I haven’t been around many disabled people in my lifetime. I then connected it to my cousin, he lost his leg when he was younger and he never made it seem like it was a disability and I think that might be why the results were the way they were is because he made me see abled and disabled as the same, one just as capable as the other. I think these tests are important to take because even though they aren’t 100% accurate they show you biases that you need to look out for. This is especially good for law enforcement because you have to be as unbiased as possible. Ark003
Thursday a retired fire investigations chief talked to our criminal investigations class and he taught me many things I did not know about the job at all. The explanation that he gave us for an Fire investigator was the process of determining origin, cause and development of a fire and explosion. One thing he said that stuck with me was that investigators do not use the term suspicious because it implies a criminal, I like how they do that so it is not automatically assumed a criminal had to do that crime. There are 2 classifications called the fire investigator and arson investigator. The fire investigator have to do many things. They have to do 3 modules which are 40 hours each, the modules must be taken consecutively, have a certification by OSFM and a certification by National Fire Academy. The module topics consist of fire patterns, building systems, electricity and fire and basic fire science. The arson investigator has to do different things. They have to do a 5 week course which is 200 hours of instruction, modules must be taken consecutively,certified by OSFM and certified by National Fire Academy. The 4 causes of a fire are accidental, natural, undetermined and incendiary. The NFPA 1033 is a standard for professional qualifications for an fire investigator and they need a min. up to date and basic knowledge of certain 16 items. Here are some of the 16 items: fire science, fire chemistry, thermodynamics,fire dynamics, explosion dynamics, hazard materials, failure analysis/analytical tools and evidence documentation/ collection and preservation. The NFPA 921 is a guide for fire and explosion investigations and min up to date and basic knowledge of the 7 step process used in the physical sciences that are desirable. The NFPA 921 sets the bar for scientific-based investigations and analysis of fire and explosion incidents. The scientific method is recognizing the need, define the problem, collect data, analyze the data, develop hypothesis, select final hypothesis. Lastly with this career you have to do a rectification. With this recertification it is required every 4 years,based on accumulation of 100 points and training/work experience. The video was an example of an bedroom fire investigation. During this investigation they showed how to figure out where the fire started, did it travel, what kind of fire was it and if there was an forced entry or not. By the end of the video they were able to decide everything that had happened and what the person did and used to start the fire. -brooklyn003
We had a fire investigator in class today. I found the information he shared with us to be fascinating. The three types of fires is accidental, natural and undetermined. Accidental fires are caused unintentionally but can destroy a lot of things. Natural things such as wildfires cause natural fires. Natural fires can be seen in places like California when there’s a drought. Undetermined fires are investigated and then can also go back and be investigated later on if more evidence comes to light. The process of investigating a fire can be like investigating shootings. It is like shootings because there are multiple steps in finding the reason behind (how the crime happened) the crime being committed. First you have to define the problem. This can be like looking through evidence or anything that could have set the fire on. Then collect data. This would be like collecting everything that looks like it was part of the fire. Next, analyze data. This would be like looking directly through the evidence for anything that pertains to the crime. Next develop a hypothesis. This involves making an intelligent conclusion about the crime in question. Second to last is test the hypothesis. Testing the hypothesis can include canvassing the area for anyone who knows something about the crime in question. Lastly, find the perp. This includes arresting the suspect. The NFPA stands for National Fire Protection Association. Fire Investigators have to be recertified every 4 years in order to still practice fire investigation. The NFPA is defined as the standard for explosions and fire investigations. This recertification is a test based on 100 points. This includes experience, training, maintenance of proficiency and multiple other things. The types of standards are the NFPA 1033 and NFPA921. Some people consider the NFPA standards book like the Bible. The different things that fuel a fire is Fire patterns, building systems, electricity and fire, fuel gas system, human behavior, legal considerations, planning the investigation and vehicle investigation. The requirements for an arson investigator is a 5 week course that includes 200 hours of instruction. 40 hours of mandatory firearm training. The NFPA 1033 and NFPA 921 standards also required to arson fires. I would just like to thank the investigator for coming in and teaching us about fire investigation. -chicubs003
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed reading your post as you hit on some points I didn't get a chance to in mine. However, I did notice you forgot one type of fire cause- incendiary. I did miss some things in my notes as well just because I was trying to write down as much as I could of what he was saying to us. Incendiary fires are those of which are set purposefully. Something I actually learned from your post was that of the 100 point scoring system for the re-certification for the fire investigators- I must have missed that portion. It is a very interesting job aspiration/career that is certainly giving me more thoughts on what I want to do with my future. GMan003
Delete-chicubs003, I agree with you. There was great information shared on investigations. I was not aware of the categories fire could be placed into. I found this information highly interesting. I also learned about the fire investigation procedures. They use the scientific method for most if not all their steps when dissecting a crime scene. Hence, having some science knowledge is beneficial for investigators. Their work is based on cause and effect. As a whole, I was greatly unaware of the qualifications needed in ordered to be fully registered as a fire or arson investigator. Also, I didn’t realize there was a recertification process, I thought once an individual was in the system they would be with in the legal requirements.
DeleteI feel as if a Natural fire such as in Californian would be very tedious and time consuming due to the vast amount of land that must be covered. Also even though most are considered Natural fires due to drought conditions it would be interesting to know how it is determined to be arson. With the accelerant possible burning and it being impossible to have an electrical fire, I would like to know the process of determining such fires. jadist003
DeleteI liked your post because you covered some of the topics that I forgot in his presentation. The requirements for a fire investigator don’t seem to difficult to complete. I think that I could do the five week course and get to the 200 hours of instruction. If I could learn one more thing from his presentation I would want to know what these 200 hours of instruction contained. I don’t have any idea what they would be training you on because I have never really looked into this career. I think the best part would be the fire arm training because it really wouldn’t feel like work. Celtics003
DeleteIn class today we had a arson chief investigator come in and talk to the class about what we needed to be a firefighter and arson investigator. No matter if you are a firefighter or a arson investigator you will need to know a lot of different types of codes because they give specific information for you will need depending on the situation. For a example firefighters and arson investigators have to know the NFPA 921 which is the guide for fire and explosion investigations. NFPA stands for National Fire Protection Association. Which requires four years of schooling before you can become a fire fighter. Regardless what you want to do when dealing with fires you will start as a firefighter and then move up in the ranks. There are 3 kinds of fires and they are accidental, natural, and undetermined . Accidental fire happen for example when you are cooking and you leave a pot on and you forget about the pot and it catches on fire. Natural fires occur for example when lighting strikes a tree or a pole. Undetermined fires are fires that you can’t really figure out how the fire started.To first determine which type of fire someone has you have to do the 7 step scientific method. The first is to recognize the need. Basically means a fire investigator has to look at the situation. Secondly he or she must collect the data. Which means the fire fighter has to look around the room or whatever building the fire investigator is in and collect the evidence to help determine what type of fire it is such as a natural, accidental, and or undetermined. Then analyze the data. Then develop the hypothesis. Which allows the fire investigator to figure out how did the fire happen.Then test hypothesis. Which allows the fire investigator to do a quick test to see if it was the wires and or if it looks like someone tried to set the place of fire. Lastly find the suspect. Some firefighters if they have took extra schooling to be a arson investigator are able to go find the suspect and find the suspect. If he or she tried to set the area on fire. To be a fire investigator it requires you must take a 5 week course which requires you to go for 200 hours and 40 mandatory hours of firearm training. Batman003
ReplyDeleteBeing able to have a class in which we’re fortunate enough to have a teacher with connections and a personality in which other law enforcement officials respect is truly an awesome experience/privilege. Hearing something from out of a book is one thing, hearing something from someone who worked in that field and knows basics about other fields in law enforcement is another, but having someone who worked specifically in that field and knows it better than anyone is something that’s hard to describe in words as to just exactly how amazing it is. Hearing our guest speaker’s lecture on thursday truly helped open my eyes to just how broad of a spectrum the criminal justice field is- I never previously thought that a fire investigation would be as in depth as it is or that they would have their own evidence collection team and resources/technology. The amount of training/schooling required to become a fire investigator is pretty intense- typically, it’s required that you have at least a bachelor's degree (normally in fire science), as well as having attended a fire investigation course. In this course, depending on which classification you’re going into (arson or fire), you are required to attend 3 forty hour modules and obtain a certification by the OSFM (Office of the State Fire Marshal) as well as the NFA (National Fire Academy). I learned far too much in the lecture to list it all, so I’ll just state some of the more interesting things I learned that I was previously unaware of; firstly, there are 4 main causes of fire. The first being accidental, which is obviously something that happens with reckless behavior or just simply accidentally, the next being natural, like lightning, the third being incendiary (set intentionally), and the last being undetermined, in which they just weren’t able to find the origin of the fire or could but were unable to determine the actual cause of the start of the fire. A story that our guest speaker told that I found truly interesting was that of a man who desired a bigger boat but didn’t have the funds for it or just didn’t want to pay for it himself- so naturally he attempted an insurance fraud scam. The way in which he went about this was that he took 3-4 space heaters in his luxury boat and set them all relatively close to each other and spritzed the area with gasoline to make it look like the heaters overheated or caught something in the boat on fire. Where he messed up, according to our speaker, was that he dropped the bottle of the accelerant he was using by the door to the entrance of his boat. Later, during the investigation, the fire investigation team was able to discover this seemingly “accidental” fire to actually be an insurance fraud scam attempt in which I’m sure the owner of the yacht was punished pretty severely for. All in all, I thoroughly enjoyed our guest speaker and hope we have more to come throughout the semester. GMan003
ReplyDeleteI also agree that we were fortunate to have this speaker come in on one of his days off, unpaid. It was really nice of him to share his experience with us. I also agree it was an awesome experience and it was a privilege.I also think that it did widing the view on how big the criminal justice field is and it did get a lot of people in the clas thinking more about their future careers. I like how you gave specific examples of what he talked about and I really liked how you made sure to talk about how much of an honor it was to have him come and speak with us. -pizza003
DeleteIt was another privilege to have somene from fire department in connection to law enforcement to speak to us in class. I learned a lot that i did not even know. Actually he said they all work together with law enforcement officers at the time of fire damage investigation. He told us there are 3 causes of fire, accidental, natural, and un determined. Some people just destroy their own property to get money from insurense. But a lot of people forget that there will be investigation about the cause of this fire first. He gave us an example of a guy who set fire to his own boat inorder to send a claim to his insurence to get money to buy a bigger boat. He did not play the game right and the investigators found that the boat was burned down from the gasoline that was sprinkled all over the boat. Same this i saw from the video, i was surprised that somebody can break your home and still also set the fire. Fire department and police department they are all have the same purpose in the community. They save life’s of citizens and protect them as well. I will give an example of 9/11 a lot of fire fighters were injured and some of them died in process of saving lifes of people. They never gave up in any situation same thing as police officers. I also learned that to work in fire department, you have to attend three forty hours modules and obtain certificate. It’s not something that you can just go for only physical training and qualify. Another impontant thing i leaned was, arson doesn’t have statues limitations. Somebody can be convicted and charged for the clime made years and years back. Also it is a great job that police and other departments work together to serve the community effectifully. GUSII002
ReplyDeleteGUSII 003 my bad not 002
DeleteHaving a guest speaker about arson and how fire investigations occur and the importance of them was very interesting. The first step in trying to figure out a fire investigation is finding where the fire originated and than you can look for the cause. Whether it be somewhere near the origin or connected to something of the origin. There are two different classifications of investigators. The fire investigator and the arson investigator. The fire investigator is an of rank, higher up firefighter. An arson investigator is a firefighter but also a police officer that knows how to correctly obtain evidence. There are four different causes of fire. The first one is accidental, this happens when someone forgets they have something in the oven or tips over a candle accidently and other situations similar. The next is natural, which occurs in drier environments like the natural wildfires in California. Another cause is intentional, whether it be suicide or to try and get money from insurance. The last cause is undetermined. Finding evidence on how a fire started because it destroyed the majority of the evidence. Finding evidence is strictly based on the scientific method and the hypothesis is determining the cause in order to find evidence. Arson does not have a statute of limitation. When arson is a topic in the courtroom, the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) 921 is the guide to follow for the standards. The attorney and judges are very strict on the standards of the National Fire Protection Association 921. Going through the scene of the investigation can be very difficult. The investigators have to be dressed well in order to layer through the debris, which includes wearing a respirator so they don’t breathe in the toxins. Many photos are taken throughout the investigation because they want to document everything to make sure the investigation is thorough. It is usually a whole investigation team that work together in order to find the cause of the solution. Investigating a fire can take a lot of time ust like any other crime you are trying to solve. Not only does it take time, it also takes a lot of people working together correctly to help solve the crime. Having someone come in to talk to us about arson investigation was very interesting and informative. I wish he would have talked more about the hiring process of becoming an arson investigator and how the correspond with also having the same qualifications as a police officer. #notaplumber003
ReplyDeleteHaving a guest speaker about fire investigation was really a privilege. the reason i say that is because we actually had a chief come in and talk and its rare to have a fire chief come in and talk about some important things that we should know and also give us tips on this that the fire department offer and what their job is. it is important that firemen assist the fire investigator by being extremely careful in attributing the fire to any cause, unless they are reasonably sure. The nature of fire is such that it will alter, change, or destroy the physical characteristics of the materials burned. A fire could conceal or change the very nature of the materials used to start it! Because of this, some incendiary fires are never detected, and consequently never investigated.Every fire has a cause and every fire has a reason. Cause and reason are often used as synonymous terms, but they are quite different. When used in connection with an arson investigation, cause is defined as, that which occasions or effects a result. Reason is defined as a motive leading to an action. The cause may be accidental, malfunctioning of equipment, or arson, as well as many others. The reason may be any one of the motives for arson.Some investigators will automatically check all equipment, appliances, heating, electrical wiring, fuses, flues, chimneys, and other possible causes. Once they have located the correct cause they will probably have the point of origin. These investigators are using the method of finding the cause, then determining the point or origin.The fire investigator, of course, must have a good knowledge of the chemistry of fire, including the fire triangle in addition to the questions and instructions given above. When he applies all of these, he will have conducted a very thorough examination of the fire scene. This should enable him to leap the gap from the probable to the true cause of the fire.One of the challenging aspects of fire investigation is the multi-disciplinary basis of the investigator's job. As fires can be caused by or involve many ignition sources and fuels, fire investigators need to know not only the science of fire behavior, but also to have a working understanding of many different areas of study including construction, electricity, human behavior, and mechanical devices. For example, if there is a gas appliance at the origin of the fire, an investigator should know enough about appliances to either include or exclude it as a possible cause of the fire. Fire investigators sometimes work with forensic engineers, such as forensic electrical engineers when examining electrical appliances.
ReplyDeleteBball003
I agree with your post. There is so much that goes into fire investigations. Before having the Chief come in and speak, I didn't realize just how much went into investigations. It gives me a whole new appreciation for the craft that fire departments have. -AS003
DeleteFire investigations was very interesting. It was quite the cool learning experience, to get to listen to the former chief of fire investigations. What I didn't really realize before this lecture, was how important investigators roles are when they are investigating fires. I also didn't know how intense the training was for firefighters, to become fire investigators, and the two types of fire investigation. Chief Maclin explained that to become a fire investigator, firefighters have to take three 40 hour modules, to become a fire investigator that will give firefighters the certification through the national fire academy. To become an arson investigator, you have to go to a 5 week academy that includes 200 hours of instruction, to get your certification. I also learned that firefighters who are investigators, have the opportunity to get firearms training, and get certifications to become peace officers. Fire investigators who have the peace officer training, grants them arrest power when they find the right suspect of a fire crime. It was also very interesting, to see the certain aspects that fire investigators consider when they are investigating fires. The 4 causes that could cause a fire like accidental, natural, incendiary, and undetermined. The fire investigators have very interesting tactics when investigating a fire. They consider building systems, electrical systems, and activity that was going on inside the building to maybe find a way to determine how the fire started. Investigators will also take pictures of the crowd outside of where the fire was. They do this to see if a face keeps showing up, because arsonist like to return to the scene of where they created the fire. If investigators see a recurring face in the crowd that could narrow down the search for a suspect. It was also very interesting to see the certain standards that investigators have to follow to conduct a correct investigation. The NFPA standards are what investigators need to have a good understanding of. There are 16 standards in NFPA, that set the bar for guidelines that investigators must know. There are certain things that investigators can and cannot do in an investigation. For example when an investigator is interrogating a suspect they cannot use certain phrases or words, because that would be implying that the suspect is guilty. Investigators have to follow the rules just like police officers. It was very interesting seeing the fire investigation side of things.
ReplyDeleteI-Like-Cereal003
I also did not realize how important the investigators roles were in an investigation. It makes sense on why fire fighters training are intense. You have to be move quickly, possible carry people out, and lift things. I did not know that an investigator can not do certain things in an investigation and I also did not know that the investigators have to follow certain rules just like the police. I was surprised on how many standards there was in the NFPA. I thought the presentation was interesting as well. Definitely learned some things that I did not know. -Soccer003
DeleteI have never realized how much a firefighter has to be a investigator in there work force. He first went to the outside of the house to show the little mark on the window to show of the attempted break in. There is many details that he was showing that goes into a fire investigation. He goes into the walls and fire lines on where the main blaze was in the room. The bed was the source of the fire which was the main source of the fire. He went to the outside of the room and was talking about the door and the showed the sud to show that the door was closed throughout the time of the fire. Then he was talking about the placement of the jewelry boxes. That goes to show how much of detail goes into a fire investigation when a burglary arson is possible. I can see if the room was a total lose or if the building was gone how the investigation would have to be taken differently. The amount of detail he tried to put in seven minute video was a lot. The way the fire burns is and the marking it leaves shows anything from how long and how hot the fire would burn or how long it lasted. That would be how acdemy would teach and learn how that investigation process for the firefighters is very detailed. I enjoyed learning on how the placement of the jewelry boxes were placed and the window marked made it a very easy case to solve for a arson. The investigation with fire and police are very similar in many ways, in the investigation process with many different techniques to make the outcome of the cases Firefighters investigation process looks like has little more detail being most fires would damage or ruin most evidence make the case a lot more difficult. I do like how they made the actor play out the acting act of the arson case they proved, to show how the suspect was able to do the arson. Goes to show how easy it is do the arson or how easy it is to play the arson to find out how or why they did it to get the suspect. That would make the investigation process easier on the fire investigator with the process and the protocols to find a suspects or suspects. DirtTrack003
ReplyDeletei agree with you the fire investigations was a very eye opening experience to learn about and the experience they have to go through during there investigations process. The academy is very intense and long but learning and watching the process of the investigator. Learning about the fire way of things is similar but also different in ways. The amount of detail and knowledge having to know they way the fire burns and marking that details of what those mean is a big when you have many protocols when they have to go through with the guides and NFPA. DIrtTrack003
ReplyDeleteMy over all view of fire and arson investigation was extremely narrow. I was under the assumption that both these terms had the same definition, however, I am greatly mistaken. Fire investigators have no kind of police power. Where as an arson investigator possesses more police power. To become a fire investigator there are several things to get done before becoming fully certified. First, three modules which is structured like a class needs to be taken; in total the three modules are forty hours long and needs to be taken consecutively from start to finish. Secondly, they need to acquire a certification by OSFM and a certification through national fire academy. Through this program an individual will be exposed to many interesting things; such as learning the fundamentals of basic fire science, fire patterns, building systems, electricity and fire, fuel gas system, human behavior, legal considerations, planning the investigation and vehicle investigations. Human behavior can be grouped into insurance fraud. The hardest crime to solve is vehicle fire; as vehicles have many different flammable fluids that is legal for its uses. Fire investigators will be highly proficient in these areas before they are considered for the job. Arson investigators are similar but they have higher requirements for their certification. They require five weeks of class room instruction which is equal to two-hundred hours. This two-hundred hour also includes forty hours of fire arm training. The individual who takes the approach of an arson investigator will have a more diverse base for their career as it addresses more avenues. NFPA is National Fire Prevention Association. Within this association there are two certifications; the 1033 and 921. These two are different, the 1033 is more standard as it addresses hazardous materials, failure analysis, fire chemistry and fire dynamics. The other is 921 which is a guide for fire and explosion investigations. Through this guide there is the seven-step process, recognizing the need, define the problem, collect data, analyze the data, develop a hypothesis, test the hypothesis and finally select a final hypothesis. Once the final hypothesis has been established the investigator can not change their claim. There are four possible categories for a fire to be placed in; accidental, natural, interneural and undetermined. So, the investigator must place the fire into the best suited category. Once an individual is certified, they are required to renew their certification every four years as this acts as a refresher course. This recertification is based on accumulation of 100 points. I have learned many things about arson and fire investigation. Even cops need heroes too. -CoalRoller003
ReplyDeleteI agree with you, from the beginning, I never knew there was a difference between the two investigators. But once the professor started talking about the differences I realized that they were two different concepts. The certification through the OSFM is very interesting because of all the different concepts you learn about arson investigation and how to correctly find the evidence in order to find the solution. The different certifications also include a lot of training, learning, and problem solving to not only become a good firefighter and investigator. Learning about the different categories of the causes of arson and why a fire starts was very interesting. I thought this was very interesting because my main goal is to be a detective. Therefore knowing these types of causes will help me in the long run when I go into that professen. Also knowing the difference between the two different certifications was also helpful and useful. I also didn’t know there were two different certifications to inquire in order to become an investigator. The NFPA also known as National Fire Prevention Association 921, is a guide that is used for court cases in order to get a better understanding of the rules and regulation. #notaplumber003
DeleteI also agree with you. Coming into the talk I did not know there was a difference either between the two investigative positions of the fire department. The different certifications also include a lot of training, learning, and problem solving to become a firefighter and investigator. Learning about the different categories of the causes of arson and why a fire starts was interesting I thought as well. The certification through the OSFM is very interesting because of all the different concepts you learn about arson investigation and how to correctly find the evidence in order to find the solution. The NFPA also known as National Fire Prevention Association 921. This is seen as guide, not a bible, because it is always getting updated every few years. NFPA 921 is used for court cases in order to get a better understanding of the rules and regulation of the fire investigation process.
Delete-CUBSFAN003
It was such an honor to have retired Fire Investigator Phillip Maclin come and speak to our Introduction to Investigations class. It was insightful to know that based on 20 ILCS 2910 Peace Officer Fire Investigator Act, fire/arson investigation is connected to criminal investigations and that Arson investigators have police arresting powers. One would assume that a police detective would be responsible for the investigations, but 20 ILCS 2910 specifically states “ Any person who is a sworn member of any organization and paid fire department of a political subdivision of this State and is authorized to investigate fires or explosions for such political subdivisions and to determine the cause, origin and circumstances of fires or explosions that are suspected to be arson or arson-related crimes, may be classified as a peace officer by the political subdivision or agency employing such person. A person so classified shall possess the same powers of arrest, search and seizure and the securing and service of warrants as sheriffs of counties, and police officers within the jurisdiction of their political subdivision.” The steps to becoming a fire and arson investigator is similar and very lengthy. For a fire investigator you must complete three modules which are 40 hours each, these modules must be taken consecutively. You must also obtain certification by OSFM (Office of the Illinois State Fire Marshall) and certification by the National Fire Academy. The topics of study are Basic Fire Science, Fire Patterns, Building Systems, Electricity Fire, Fuel Gas system, Human Behavior, Legal Considerations, Planning the Investigation and Vehicle Investigation. For an Arson investigator you must complete a five week course with 200 hours of instruction. Modules must be taken consecutively with 40 hours of mandatory firearms training. You must also obtain certification from OSFM and the National Fire Academy. The topics of study are; Fire Science, Fire Chemistry, Thermometry, Thermodynamics, Fire Dynamics, Computer Fire, Fire Investigations, Fire Analysis, Fire Investigations Mythology and Technology, Hazardous Material, Failure analysis and analytical tools, Fire protection systems Evidence documentation, collection and preservation, Electricity and electrical systems. You must also recertify every four years. It was also helpful to know the different types of fires that can be started; grease fire, natural fires, incendiary fire, and undetermined fires. I also feel that it is good that there is no statue of limitations on arson. Being that some fire investigations take years and some suspects are unknown this is helpful for family’s that have loved ones who have lost their lives to arson find justice. jadist003
ReplyDeleteI learned alot from the presentation in class. We got to hear from someone who spent 27 years on the fire department. This was a great opportunity and it was really awesome how he took time out of his day to come speak to us, unpaid, so this was really just to teach and give us insight. He went through a lot of really good information. I learned that there are two types of investigators one is a fire that has no police powers. The other is arson who is like both firefighter and police officer. He also told us the the nfpa 921 is the guide for it it's almost like a bible for fire and explosion investigations. He also talked about nfpa standard serves as a document of professional qualifications for investigators is nfpa 1033. He also informed us about how investigation recertification occurs how often about every four years. He also took us through the steps to the seven step scientific method, the first is recognize the need. He also talked about basic fire scene and fire patterns. He also talked about building systems and how the effect the equation like the doors, sprinklers and exits. Even fire alarms are part of the building system. He also talked about how there was three types of arson accidental scenery so intentional, and undetermined. He also talked about the steps it takes to go into the field. It takes a lot of work you have to get a lot of certificates. You have to get one from the osfm and a certificate from national fire academy. He was very informative and really gave a detailed presentation. It definitely left me with a lot to think about going into my career. -pizza 003
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about it being an honor for him to come talk to us. There was many things he said about fire investigations that I had no idea about so therfore he did his job and taught us multiple things. I also agree with how you said he gave us insight because he gave us real life examples of things and real pictures and even some of the people he knew. The NFPA 921 and NFPA 1033 were very interesting a similar but was fun learning about there diffrences and what step each one had to take to get to a certain point. -brooklyn003
DeleteIn class on Thursday we had a retired fire chief come in to speak with us and teach the class about fire investigations. Before having the Chief come in a talk, I did not realize how much went into being a fire investigator. I figured it was something along the lines of finding a cigarette and saying it was from that. Case closed. What I came to realize is that it is far more in depth than that. To start off, people who investigate these types of fires have to have many hours of training. The two types are fire investigation and arson investigation. The fire investigation training has 3 modules that are 40 hours each. When this is completed, they are certified by OSFM. In this training they cover topics ranging from basic fire science to the human behavior behind fires. The other Investigator type is arson. The arson investigators have to go through a 5 week course that is 200 hours and a mandatory 40 hour firearms training. Once this is complete they are then certified by OSFM. One interesting thing I learned from the guest speaker is that there are 4 causes of a fire. These causes are accidental, natural, incendiary, and undetermined. If an investigator is not certain on the cause of a fire, it is best to list it as undetermined. In doing so, they have the ability to come back to it and be able to charge someone for the cause of the fire if need be. This has no time limit on being able to bring criminal charges against someone. The next thing I learned about was the NFPA standards. The first standard being NFPA 1033. This is a document showing the knowledge investigators are to have and keep to date on to be certified as an investigator. The other one is NFPA 921. This sets the bar for all investigators on how to handle fire investigations. Some refer to this as a bible, but in reality it is constantly changing and updating, so to refer to this as a bible is not completely true. These standards help when it comes time to be recertified. This is required to happen every 4 years no matter what. This is used to maintain proficiency. In order to do this you have to obtain 100 accumulation points in those 4 years. I think that after having this guest speaker come in to talk about his craft, I have a whole new understanding of fire and investigations. -AS003
ReplyDeleteI also never thought much about fire investigation, I just assumed that a detective would just do it. At first, I thought what could be so important to investigating a fire but then I realized that people intentionally set things on fire to get rid of evidence. I think it’s a good idea the countless hours of training given to investigate because fire is a very destructive thing. I also learned a lot about the difference between fire and arson investigation, which is helpful to know in a investigation class. taco003
DeleteI meant yellow003
DeleteI thought the fire investigation talk was very interesting. I went into the talk with not that much knowledge about the fire investigation process or the different types. I learned that fire investigators play a major role in finding how fire started. To become a fire investigator, and the two types of fire investigation, the Chief said that firefighters have to take three “40” hour modules. When completed that will give firefighters the certification through the national fire academy. To become an arson investigator, you have to go to a 5 week academy that includes 200 hours of instruction, to get your certification. Some firefighters who are investigators, have the opportunity to get firearms training, and get certifications to become peace officers. The 4 causes that could cause a fire like accidental, natural, incendiary, and undetermined. The fire investigators have specific tactics when investigating a fire. They have a lot to consider when figuring out how a fire started. They consider anything from building systems, electrical systems, and activity that was going on inside the building to maybe find a way to determine how the fire started. I found it really interesting that Investigators will take pictures of the crowd outside of where the fire was. They do this to see if a face keeps showing up at the scenes of fires. Arsonist criminals like to return to the scene of where they created the fire, I learned. Seeing a recurring face in the crowd could narrow down the search for a suspect. It was also interesting to see the certain standards that investigators have to follow to conduct a correct investigation. Fire Investigators have to be recertified every 4 years in order to still practice fire investigation. The NFPA is the standard for explosions and fire investigations. This recertification is a test based on 100 points. This includes experience, training, maintenance of proficiency and multiple other things. The types of standards are the NFPA 1033 and NFPA921. Overall, I really enjoyed the chief coming and talking with our class and I walked away with new understanding of how the fire investigation process looks and works. -CUBSFAN003
ReplyDeleteIt takes a lot of time for someone to become a fire investigator. It is worth the time though, you are able to complete more training and gain more knowledge. If a fire investigator is able to pass the law enforcement training they will be able to actually arrest people. To become an Arson investigator it takes even more time. It is a 5 week course compared to the 40 hours of the fire investigator. I never knew that these two things existed so it was fun to learn about them.-ClarkKent003
DeleteThe fire chief was very informative when he came to speak to our class on Thursday. This has honestly got me thinking about becoming a firefighter. One of the first things that the Chief talk about is Systematic layering. You sift through the fire debris piece by piece and layer by layer. You are always looking for the origin of the fire, once you have found the origin then you can determine the cause of the fire. You should always wear your PPE because the fire creates small contaminates that you could breathe in real easily. This is really dangerous to your health and could cause cancer. When you are determining the cause of the fire, you always want to take a lot of photos. The chief said that the number of photos could range from 300 to 1000 plus. Another thing that I found interesting is the fire sprinklers in our room. I might be the only one that did not know that those were fire sprinklers but now I know. I will be looking for them in every room that I will go into now. Another thing that we learned from the chief is the 4 cause of fires. The first cause is accidental. An example of this is when you are cooking, you hear a knock at the door and you answer it. You get into a conversation with the person and forget that you are cooking, when you rush back it has become a raging fire. That would be an accidental fire because it was an accident. The second type of cause is Natural. This is when lightning strikes a tree and cause it to light on fire. This is an act of nature that cannot be controlled. The third type of cause is Incendiary, this is a fire that is set by purpose. An example of this kind of cause that the fire chief gave us is when a yacht owners boat caught on fire. The owner of the boat stated that is was an accidental fire started by a heater that malfunction. Come to find out that the Owner sprayed the cord with gasoline and the surrounding room to make the fire spread. He intently set the fire so that he could claim the insurance money so that he could buy a bigger yacht. The last cause of fire is called undetermined. This is when the firefighters just have no clue how the fire started.- ClarkKent003
ReplyDeleteI used to be a volunteer firefighter and all I know we did was to fight fires and respond to medical calls. I did not know they had more opportunities to reach past this. When we had a fire and once we put it out, the state fire marshal was called because we cant investigate on our own. I think if someone is interested in being a firefighter but is also torn with being a police officer and find both careers intriguing, it would be a very wise idea to look into arson investigations because you still operate as a firefighter so you still get to have fun in that sense but you also get to do the interrogations and investigating to where you operate as a literal detective. I always knew arson people come back to the scene and they enjoy it but he said taking 300 photos at least I thought that was absolutely extreme until I understood every angle counts because you could go back and look at these pictures and find something you completely missed the first time or while on scene due to the chaos and all the commotion going on. I think it is amazing and he was very knowledgeable. -holywaffles003
DeleteThe fire investigator we had in class was an extremely knowledgeable man. I think his experience on such a large department in a big city and everything he accomplished helped him in the long run and made him a very good teacher, educator and how he was as a firefighter. He said you cannot look at the cause before you look at the origin. I like how the fire investigation process kind of replicates a criminal investigation process because you have to look at the crime before you dig in deep. I had no idea though that arson investigators actually have arresting powers and that fire investigators though have no police powers and they mainly do scene processing and interrogations. I did not know that fire investigations took place within the department too, I honestly figured it was strictly a police matter. A fire investigator only needs 40 hours ultimately to become one while a arson investigator is a 5 week course and is a functioning firefighter with police powers. He said there are four causes for a fire, 1) Accidental, 2) Natural, 3) Intentional, 4) Undetermined. Accidental falls under cooking and natural is more if lightening was to strike, intentional is pretty cut and dry, someone had the intentions and did and then undetermined too is cut and dry, it is just simply unknown. Human behavior is vindictive he said as well. Vehicle fires are the hardest to fight he said because of all the knew things in cars and the way they are modeled. I also did not know that Peoria has its own evidence evidence preservation team. I did not even know that was a thing. He said they are very strict on the NFPA guidelines, which makes sense because it is a professional organization and they need to be. They use the scientific method to guide through fire inspection which I think absolutely has to be dreadful and pushes me away from wanting a fire science degree even more. I understand why they have to use that though. It helps them find the ultimate determinate in which of the four causes was used and how it happened. Both of these investigator certifications have to re-certify every four years. I truly did not understand how intense it could be or what the options were past firefighting. I figured it was just firefighters were firefighters and could not move too far past that so I find this amazing. -holywaffles003
ReplyDeleteI liked your post it seemed like you remember quite a lot and I agree with you when you talk about how vehicle fires are the hardest to fight he said because of all the knew things in cars and the way they are modeled. I also did not know that Peoria had its own evidence preservation team. I was also thinking that the scientific method was some thing that I would not enjoy doing and it just makes that fire science degree even more difficult and I am glad that there are people out there who are able to figure that stuff out and have the patients to practice it.
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I like what you had to say. In your blog, I liked how you mentioned how the processes that they use in the fire investigations are extremely similar to those of the criminal justice procedures. One thing that I really liked in your blog was how you mentioned the different causes of fire. When he spoke about this and mentioned that some fires were not able to be figured out and some are accidents and or on purpose or just natural, it kind of opened my mind to thinking more about how awesome it really is that these investigators are able to figure out what type of fire really occurred. -Anchorman003
DeleteI really enjoyed the speaker's presentation. I thought there was a lot of interesting things that the speaker talked about. The speaker served twenty seven and a half years and is now retired. Fire investigations is deciding the origin, the cause, and the development of the fire or explosion or both. You have to look at the origin first before the cause. There are two classifications. There is fire investigator and arson investigator. The fire investigator determines what the origin was and the cause. An arson investigator is a combination of a firefighter and a police officer. I thought it was interesting how this position was eliminated but it was brought back in 2010. I thought it was interesting when the speaker talked about how to become a fire investigator. You have to complete three modules and each of them are forty hours. The also have to be taken consecutively. You have to have certification by OSFM and certification by the National Fire Academy. I learned what the four fire causes are. The four fire causes are accidental, natural fire, insineary, or undetermined. To become an arson investigator, you have to go through a five week course and it’s two hundred hours of instruction. There is also a mandatory firearms certification and that is forty hours. I thought it was interesting how in fire investigations, you have to have firearm training. I thought it was interesting when the speaker talked about the NFPA 21. He described it as being a guide, not a bible. This is supposed to guide you through the investigation. The speaker also said that the guide changes every three year and the bible never changes. An investigator has to be up to date with the basic knowledge of sixteen items. Some of the items are fire science, electricity and electrical systems, fire analysis, fire investigation technology, explosive dynamics and a few more. I thought it was interesting when the speaker said that they never use the term “suspicious” in an investigation. The speaker said that it implies criminal. I also thought it was interesting that arson does not have statute of limitations. I thought it was interesting when the speaker was talking about photo documentation. They can take anywhere from three hundred to a thousand pictures. Sometimes it’s more than a thousand. I really enjoyed the presentation and I learned a lot about fire investigations. -Soccer003
ReplyDeleteHaving the fire investigator in class was definitely a valuable learning experience. I had always known there was a lot to fire investigation but I don’t think I would have imagined it was this much. First of all I had no idea that they could be peace officers and have the power to arrest people. Though now that I know this it makes sense why they would as they deal in criminal activities just like the police do. I also found it interesting how much detail goes into a fire investigation. I can imagine the work is rather tedious especially having to go through layers of evidence and taking all those pictures and having to examine them all. It seems as though there is an incredible amount of work that goes into a fire investigation. It was cool learning about some of the things that fire investigators are expected to have at least a basic amount of knowledge in. I was surprised there were 16 of them, a lot of them made sense and were expected but some I didn’t expect to hear about (though it’s not surprising after hearing it) like thermodynamics, explosion dynamics, and electricity and electrical systems. I also appreciate the fact they rely so much on the scientific method. It’s pretty cool that it’s also a science and follows the same method you would use to figure out other scientific problems. I also learned it can take a lot of training and you must continue to train and get recertified. It’s obvious why this is important, fire fighters along with police officers have important jobs that require them to stay sharp as it could cost people's lives if they are wrong.
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When the fire investigator came to class I really learned a lot. I didn’t even know that fire investigators existed before he came in and talked to us. I thought that fire fighters and fire chiefs were about the only professions in that field. Turns out, fire investigators have a lot of power and responsibilities including the ability to carry a firearm. I thought that there wasn’t a position in the fire career that allowed you to carry a gun so I thought that was cool. I learned that a fire investigator has to look into a fire and figure out what exactly caused the fire. They do a lot of things that a police investigator does such as take pictures of the room. He said that it would not be unusual for them to take 500 pictures of a fire scene and to pin everything around the room. They do this to figure out if there was foul play involved in the fire and so they don’t miss or forget anything about the scene. I think that this would be very difficult to do because finding out what caused a fire has to be hard. All of your evidence is most likely burned or destroyed so It has to be hard to figure out what it looked like before the fire. A question I had was what is the most common cause to a fire that they encounter. I think that it would be either a stove left on too long or maybe a cigarette butt in the trash. I don’t think that I could ever do this job for a number of reasons. The first reason is because I sweat a lot and would definitely be drenched in sweat every time I walked into a fire scene. Another reason is because I am too tall to be a fire fighter. How many fire fighters do you see that are 6’5? The answer is probably low because us tall people can’t fit in the tight spaces that a burning building might have. I could carry a person out of the fire, but I don’t think that I could get to them unless there is a lot of room. Overall this was a great learning experience for me and I hope he visits one of my other classes to talk. Celtics003
ReplyDeleteI thought that the fire investigations topic on Thursday it was very interesting in itself. On the other hand and I felt so honored to have the chief in to talk us through the fire investigation chapter in the book. prior to this class meeting I had very little about fire investigations in the different types of requirements needed by arson investigators. To become a fire investigator, firefighters have to take 340 hour modules. After that if they want to pursue the level of an arson investigator they will have to go to a five week Academy and they includes 200 hours of instruction to get that certification. I also learned that there are four causes of fire and they are accidental, natural, incendiary, and undetermined. The chief went into detail especially on why fire investigators will label a fire as undetermined. Often times the cause of fire is undetermined in the case that evidence comes about down the road they are able to go back and solve the case and that would not be possible if they had already determined it to be one of the other three causations of fire. this was extremely important because arson much like murder does not have any statute of limitation meaning that his evidence has brought forth 50 years from now or even longer they can still prosecute. There is a lot that goes into investigating a fire you have to consider a number of different things when figuring out why the fire started. They have to consider things such as electrical Systems, building systems, and even human behavior. One of the last things that we learned about with the NFPA standards. more specifically the NFPA 1033 and this is a document showing the knowledge of the investigator and it has to be renewed every four years. The other document it is the NFPA 921 and this is basically a guideline for all fire investigations end it is the standard throughout the whole fire industry. this is a very important document for a fire investigator to know inside and out especially when being questioned by a defense attorney.
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From our last class on Thursday, I learned several different things from our guest speaker. I had no idea that it was possible for a firefighter to have any sort of police power and thought that they only had to worry about putting out fires and making sure everyone is safe. I knew they had a lot of work to do and was surprised to find out they could have some of the same powers as a police officer by becoming an arson investigator. It was interesting to learn about all the different requirements with schooling and training people have to go through to become fire investigators. It really takes a lot of work and I thought it was cool that you have to get recertified every few years. Another thing that I had found interesting was that the National Fire Protection Association 921 guide is updated about every three years. I found that interesting because it shows that there is going to be more than one correct way to investigate and that they are actively working to improve on their work to make their investigations as best as they can. Another thing I learned from the speaker was that there are four main causes of fires and those are: natural, accidental, incendiary, and unknown. I thought there would be a lot more than four categories, but it makes sense. I found out that if an investigator is unsure of how the fire started that it is best to say the cause is unknown so they may reopen the case if they need to. I learned quite a bit from having a speaker come in and talk to us and I'm glad we are able to have opportunities to learn from experts. -smokeybear003
ReplyDeleteSo, after class on Thursday I felt that I learned so much information I never thought I would be introduced to. I am happy that the fire investigator came in to show and teach us ways we can use the information given to us to help in the future. With all the laws and the training procedures they told us about I feel confident about my understanding in fire investigations. Making sure to understand the origin, cause and development. From seeing what you have to do to become a fire investigator. Covering the 3 modules to become a fire investigator. When being told that they are 40 hours to me sounded a bit ridiculous at first but since I didn’t have a full grasp until what the investigator said went into them. That was when it clicked in my head on why it took so long. Having ranging topics from basic fire science all the way to vehicle investigations. Given that knowledge helped my concerns for the modules being that long of a time period for just one of them. With them covering the three types of fires there are which was lightning, intentionally, and undetermined. Out of those three I have heard of people intentionally starting fires to try and claim insurance to get better vehicles or homes. In my eyes that is truly messed up that you’d try and destroy something you had to earn but got greedy and wanted the next best thing. The investigator did explain that with the story of the gentleman wanting a better yacht, so he set a fire to get a bigger one. I didn’t expect there to be another type of investigator. Given that arson is a form of intentional fire. The arson investigator has a lot more to do to become an arson investigator. They must go through a 5 week course and 200 hours of modules that must be taken consecutively. The last thing I found interesting was the NFPA 921 7 step process on the investigators conclusion for their own hypothesis. They must make sure to recognize the need first and followed through with defining the problem at hand. Third, collect on scene data then fourth analyze said data. With these first four steps are very crucial to even begin the hypothesis. -MrWadeWilson003
ReplyDeleteLearning the differences between Fire and Arson investigation was very interesting, because I never thought much about what it meant to investigate them. A retired fire chief explained the different qualifications and facts that take place with investigation of a fire. He explained that fire and arson may be the same thing, but they both have different powers when investigating. When it comes to investigating there are different qualification for fire and arson, for fire there are 30-40 hours of modules, academy, etc. They explain different topics that involve fires and causes. For arson, there are more requirements like 200 hours of modules and 40 hours of firearms. He came to explain the different causes of fires which are accidental, natural, incendiary, and undetermined. He also said that when closing a case, if there is at least a doubt of the cause of which you should put undetermined. If the case was closed with something else then that was it, you couldn’t go back and change it. There are National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Standards like 1033 that is more basic knowledge and 921 that is like a guide for analysis. It was interesting that arson doesn’t have a statute of limitations, that you can investigate at any time. Also, it’s science so they follow a scientific method that involves recognizing, define, collect, analyze, hypothesis, test it, and final decision. When investigating a fire it was mentioned in the video that you start off by observing on the outside for any evidence. There might be hints of any entrance or escape. When inside you look for where the fire started and where it traveled to. Which helps for understanding what happen and why. Also, when investigating there need to be assurance if anything looks normal. It was helpful to learn all of this because it can help when investigating another crime scene. yellow003
ReplyDeleteI wasn't able to be there for the whole presentation so I am glad you talked about the science of it and how they use a scientific method, I also liked how you brought up the video and that they search for signs of entrance or escape. I have never thought much about fire investigation like you said at the top of your blog so I am glad we were able to learn from him and that he took his time to tell us/teach us about this career, it is nice to see what other kind of careers are out there.Ark003
DeleteOn Thursday last week, our class was lucky enough to be able to have a guest speaker come in who was a former fire investigation chief and speak to us about the different protocols that go on and the rules of being a fire investigator. When he first started the presentation he started off by saying that fire investigation is defined as the process of determining origin, cause and development of a fire and explosion. This means that fire investigators jobs are to investigate how a fire or explosion took place. A fire investigator is able to figure out exactly how a fire started and where. If the fire was started by gasoline on purpose or if it was an accidental kitchen fire, a fire investigator can figure it out. During the speech and presentation, he talked about two different types of classifications. The first one being fire investigators and the second one being arson investigators. Also during the presentation, he mentioned that there are a few different causes of fire. There is accidental fires, natural fires, incinderary fires which are intentional, and last but not least undetermined fires which sadly enough are unable to be determined. Arson investigators are a little different from a fire investigator. One of the main differences is that an arson investigator carries a gun and has to have fourty hours of fire arms training. One thing that was mentioned during the speech was NFPA 1033 and NFPA 921. NFPA 1033 is the standard for professional qualification for fire investigators. NFPA 921 is a guide for fire and explosion investigations. One thing that I thought was really interesting was the steps at which these investigators take to find their results. They actually follow a seven step process using the scientific method. The first step is to recognize the need (identify problem). The second step is to define the problem. The third step is to collect data. The fourth step is to analyze the data (Inductive reasoning). The fifth step is to develop a hypothesis. The sixth step is to test the hypothesis (deductive reasoning). And the final step, step number seven is to select the final hypothesis and determine the cause. I thought it was awesome seeing and hearing how these investigators went about their work. One of the last things that the speaker mentioned was recertification. Recertification is something that is required every four years by all fire and arson investigators. I think that this is a good thing because it keeps everyone in the system up to date and makes sure that they are going through the procedures and processes correctly. Overall, I actually really enjoyed Thursdays class and having the speaker come in and present his knowledge to the class. I felt like I learned a lot from his speech and I definitely think that he should be invited back in the following semesters to come to share his knowledge with more individuals. -Anchorman003
ReplyDeleteThe guest speaker talked about being a fire and arson investigator, I think this profession would be cool but incredibly difficult. He talked about the schooling and how there is an academy for it, just like the FBI academy. It takes one-hundred and twenty hours of class, which consists of three modules that are forty hours each. The academy is named the National Fire Academy. He said that there are four causes to a fire; accidental the kind that happens when someone is cooking and walks away for a minute and forget they were cooking and when he asked the whole class if you should put a grease fire out with water everyone knew it was a no. Then there are natural fires like if lightning were to hit a tree and start a fire, incendiary like a grenade, and undetermined. With the undetermined ones sometimes one of the fire investigators that are a little lazy will say it was electrical without truly trying to figure out. I wasn’t able to get much more information than that because I wasn’t able to stay for the whole presentation but I was glad I got to learn what I did. I appreciate the time he took out of his day to come and teach the class about what he used to do. Ark003
ReplyDeleteI had fun taking the IAT tests, I decided to take five instead of the three we were required to take. The first one I took was the weapons one, it was to see if I associated harmless objects or weapons with White Americans or Black Americans and my results were that I don’t associate either race with the weapons or objects. I was not surprised by this because I don’t associate either race with anything else so I don’t see why I would do that with those. The next test I took was the sexuality one and it said I had no automatic preference for gay or straight people. I was surprised by this because I thought of myself as someone who would slightly prefer gay people over straight because I have more gay/bisexual friends than straight. The test after that was the disability test and it was seeing if I have an automatic preference for abled or disabled. The results showed that I had no preference for one over the other. I was also surprised by this, I thought I might have an automatic preference for abled since I haven’t been around many disabled people in my lifetime. I then connected it to my cousin, he lost his leg when he was younger and he never made it seem like it was a disability and I think that might be why the results were the way they were is because he made me see abled and disabled as the same, one just as capable as the other. I think these tests are important to take because even though they aren’t 100% accurate they show you biases that you need to look out for. This is especially good for law enforcement because you have to be as unbiased as possible. Ark003
ReplyDeleteThursday a retired fire investigations chief talked to our criminal investigations class and he taught me many things I did not know about the job at all. The explanation that he gave us for an Fire investigator was the process of determining origin, cause and development of a fire and explosion. One thing he said that stuck with me was that investigators do not use the term suspicious because it implies a criminal, I like how they do that so it is not automatically assumed a criminal had to do that crime. There are 2 classifications called the fire investigator and arson investigator. The fire investigator have to do many things. They have to do 3 modules which are 40 hours each, the modules must be taken consecutively, have a certification by OSFM and a certification by National Fire Academy. The module topics consist of fire patterns, building systems, electricity and fire and basic fire science. The arson investigator has to do different things. They have to do a 5 week course which is 200 hours of instruction, modules must be taken consecutively,certified by OSFM and certified by National Fire Academy. The 4 causes of a fire are accidental, natural, undetermined and incendiary. The NFPA 1033 is a standard for professional qualifications for an fire investigator and they need a min. up to date and basic knowledge of certain 16 items. Here are some of the 16 items: fire science, fire chemistry, thermodynamics,fire dynamics, explosion dynamics, hazard materials, failure analysis/analytical tools and evidence documentation/ collection and preservation. The NFPA 921 is a guide for fire and explosion investigations and min up to date and basic knowledge of the 7 step process used in the physical sciences that are desirable. The NFPA 921 sets the bar for scientific-based investigations and analysis of fire and explosion incidents. The scientific method is recognizing the need, define the problem, collect data, analyze the data, develop hypothesis, select final hypothesis. Lastly with this career you have to do a rectification. With this recertification it is required every 4 years,based on accumulation of 100 points and training/work experience. The video was an example of an bedroom fire investigation. During this investigation they showed how to figure out where the fire started, did it travel, what kind of fire was it and if there was an forced entry or not. By the end of the video they were able to decide everything that had happened and what the person did and used to start the fire. -brooklyn003
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